Sex with a circumcised man (positive story)

[/sunrise/]

OK, as of yesterday I am a happier woman (yes, with my circumcised man)

Scroll down to the orange stars if you don't want to read the whole story :-)

I'd had sex with intact men before, and none of us had trouble enjoying ourselves, and of-course, orgasming.

I did not need to learn any tricks. Since the first time I had sex, it all made sense. The penis does all the work for you, there's no need for tricks, and I had never known a lot of women need tricks to orgasm.

Sex with them felt like two cats snuggling and purring next to each other, a very relaxing experience, even when we both orgasm (me first, him right after), and collapse next to each other, more relaxed than any spa could make you feel. Seriously, just reading about it makes me horny.

When I am with intact men, I feel like I am the most important person in the world to him. I feel like a precious jewel.
This happened regardless if I was with a man who I deeply loved, or with a guy I barely know whom I have no feelings for.

This happens regardless if I am suffering from depression, or not. (People usually say if you can't orgasm, it's because you're depressed. Also, note it's been a long time since I've suffered from depression)

With my current boyfriend (a wonderful man), I couldn't understand.
Sex felt very... anxious, violent... I felt angry, but couldn't exactly say why. I felt more like a circus performer than this man's love.

It's very fast-paced, he can't connect with me because he's concentrating so much on banging me fast enough to make him orgasm. He has to concentrate so much
And when I'm trying to caress him, kiss him, I get jostled and he gets distracted, he has to start his rhythm/banging all over. So I have to stop and just lay there quietly. He has asked me why I don't caress him or kiss him more, but I didn't have the courage to tell him :( I'm sure he is already aware how much he has to concentrate...

It's possible for us to orgasm (extremely rare), he must go slow like an intact man would, and stay very close to me. It's enjoyable, and sometimes I have a faint orgasm, but it's a different kind of orgasm (anxious, tense, vs relaxing, loving feeling). Because he can't feel like an intact man would, he's just guessing how to thrust. It's not the same.

Even when I "orgasm", it doesn't cause him to, like it did with intact partners. I guess because it's not the same kind of orgasm, there's no strong throbbing in my vaginal area.

When we (well, he!) was done, I would feel angry and irritated for weeks. Every little thing this wonderful man did, I would be upset about! Going out with friends? Usually not a problem, then suddenly I would think "Yeah right, I bet he's meeting another woman" (Ouch!). Tired when he gets home and he wants to be alone and watch a movie? Normally I would say "Okay, enjoy *kiss*", but days after sex that same thing would put a frown on my face, and I'd think "he probably hates spending time with me". Ugh!

Some people get cranky when they don't have sex? Well, I got cranky when I had sex!

Lately, I didn't even care about having sex with him, no matter how horny. I didn't want resent the experience yet again...

I was so anxious about this, I felt like I wanted to break up with him.
I thought it was all my fault, so I have tried so many tricks, more than I dare tell him, yet nothing worked.

I never understood this. Then in an unrelated forum, someone desperate asked for help. Someone asked if he was circumcised, and she replied that he was. So the helper shared a link to how it can be more difficult for women to orgasm with a circumcised man, and that's why it's so common nowadays.

Uh? I thought only Jews were circumcised? And that it was only a little cut, not ripping out the whole skin? Then I learned so many boys are circumcised as baby boys as routine! And to learn of all the drawbacks? How awful!

All my partners before were intact, and yes, I'd noticed that my boyfriend's penis looked different. I was so confused because I couldn't give him a hand job or oral... I searched and searched for help and ideas, but nothing worked! When I try, I feel like I'm going to pull his penis out of him... or that I'm some sort of a sewing machine going up and down up and down really fast. With my previous partners, I'd known instinctively what to do, even without having to read how to! And it felt so lovely to give them hand jobs and oral sex, but when I try it with my boyfriend, I get too disgusted to continue.

I thought his penis looked different just like people's noses or eyes look different... hahaha!


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Alright, anyway, here is the whole reason I am posting.

Normally during intercourse with him, I get really dry, sore (and sometimes bleeding), and swollen after he's been at it for a while, no matter how wet I start.

I'm posting about my experience so this maybe helps you enjoy sex more, whether or not your partner is restoring (as I wish mine will :-) )

* Lay down and face each other.
* Place your legs around him, with your thighs under his waist. I also tried my thighs under his thighs, but it hurt my skin and it was more difficult for him to thrust.
* You should hug close so your whole body (specially your PELVIS) is close to his.
* Stay put and let him do all the work for now, see if it works for him. Don't move your body much, and let him get used to it.
* If it sounds like he's enjoying it, then you can start kissing/caressing.
* This is very different than he's used to, once he gets used to it, hopefully he will be very relaxed, his thrusting will be soft, and he will start kissing you and caressing you, gently too.

Isn't this great?

I admit that neither of us were able to orgasm, however, this was much more pleasant than usual! I even fell asleep, relaxed, after we were done. We held hands and it felt like his hand and mine were the same (yes, I know this is just hormones speaking, but usually when we hold hands, it feels more like a bother. This time it felt... just.. I don't know how to explain)

* He could stay inside me for a while, and I always stayed wet and comfortable.
* He thrust softly and it really sounded like he was enjoying it.
* My clitoris area felt good without manual stimulation.
* I felt myself start throbbing, not strongly, but it's encouraging! He said he felt it too, so I was really happy :-) By his sounds I could tell it was good, unfortunately it wasn't strong enough to cause him to orgasm.
* And really important as well, is that he was so relaxed, so for once(!), he was able to kiss and caress me, and when I did the same to him, he didn't get distracted from his thrusting.

Quite honestly, I think that just this experience alone will make him seriously consider restoring.

Assuming that he was being honest,that it really felt good for him*, then I think he will see "if I can do just this little thing and make it feel so much better for both of us, then I wonder how much better it would be if I restored?"

I also paid attention and I saw that he has enough extra skin that he can cover his half of his glands when hard (if we pull it over and then hold), that's a good thing, isn't it? Without feeling too optimistic, doesn't that mean that restoring would be much faster for him than a man who was cut to tight?


Now I have a question for the men and women here:
* This is a really silly question, but do you think he was being honest about it feeling very good for him? I'm afraid he is saying it just because it was a position I could finally enjoy, so he wants to do it for me.
As in, "well, I'd better do this and say I like it, or she won't have sex with me for another couple of months!"

I wonder if a man here has tried this position while circumcised, and if it really felt good for you. Or if you can try it, please let me know, I'd be so happy to know from other men.

Thanks.. :-)

[Anon102]

I draw inspiation from your detailed account Sunrise, thank you! Confirms to me that restoration can and does make a difference to love making. :)

[intact]

hi there. nice love story! remember, he was mutilated while too young to defend himself most likely, so he does not know the difference.

whats left of his penis is totally numb. if you compare his glans to previous lovers you will notice that his has a faded look. this is extra skin used to protect his glans from chaffing. the missing foreskin, which is never extra skin but everyone is born with it, even you, would normally protect his glans but that is long gone.

about the question of enjoyment for him... circed men need more rough sex to be able to feel much of anything. natural sex is not going to do much for them.

negative stuff aside, restoring will fix all of this. meanwhile get him to cover his glans as much as possible if he is lucky enough to have some foreskin left.

[/sunrise/]

whats left of his penis is totally numb. Is it really that bad? :-(
I keep thinking what it would be like to have the clitoris hood (it's a foreskin, right? It opens up when excited) always exposed and stimulated... I think I would get numb too!

about the question of enjoyment for him... circed men need more rough sex to be able to feel much of anything. natural sex is not going to do much for them.That's what I was afraid of. I've had him go slow on other positions before, and he does it for me, but I can see that it brings no enjoyment to him. With this new position I described, he really seemed to be enjoying it, so I was hoping... :D

If any non-restored men can try the position and let me know if it's any good for you, thanks. I hope you have fun experimenting.

negative stuff aside, restoring will fix all of this. meanwhile get him to cover his glans as much as possible if he is lucky enough to have some foreskin left.Is that even possible? I think the foreskin just stays behind the glans. He showed me playfully how he could get it to cover the glans, with his hands.

Or do you mean he should tug/tape to cover it?
(EDIT: I meant that he can cover his gland half-way while NOT erect, and only if he pulls/holds the skin there with his hands)

I don't think he will try tug/tape yet. If I ask him to tug or tape I'm sure he will freak out, so I'm afraid of even mentioning it.

And I apologize that my OP was very long-winded, but believe me, I was super excited about this... :) I've been lurking here a while...

[/sunrise/]

Another question...
Does anyone know if the Army (reserve) have a problem with him restoring...? He's already been in many years, and plans to stay and retire there.

[Anon102]

Please be aware this is not something you can make another person do. You can investigate and relay the benefits and encourage of course. Many of us here have had negative responses from our partners so he is very lucky in that respect however it is a long slow road this restoring journey. With your enthusiastic support he well may finish the trip.

[/sunrise/]

I agree, there's no one that can make you do something you don't want to.

I'm specially apprehensive because I'm the one who learned about it first, also with my experience with intact men before, I feel like "hey, what's the hold up, just do it already! Come on, come on, it will be great! " :p

Truth is, it will probably be painfully slow and annoying to deal with everyday, for him.

I'm aware of how my weakness could hurt this whole process, and I'm trying my best to be sensitive. *crosses fingers*

[intact]

Another question...
Does anyone know if the Army (reserve) have a problem with him restoring...? He's already been in many years, and plans to stay and retire there.

is the freedom situation really that bad in that country? its his body

[Skinned Alive]

Sunrise, what they are saying is even if he doesn't restore, he should keep his glans covered with his skin as much as possible. If he can cover that much of his glans erect though, it should be easy to be covered when flaccid assuming he is a grower. It would simply be a matter of keeping the skin rolled forward if it isn't already.


Intact, it's not so much an issue of "freedom". It's an issue of possession. When you enter into service with the military in the US, you and by proxy your body belong to the US government until you are discharged. That being said, it's usually more of a time constraint issue rather than being told "no you can not restore". That shouldn't be an issue in the reserves though because, you only serve a specific and limited amount of time during the year unless you are called to active duty.

[admin]

Another question...
Does anyone know if the Army (reserve) have a problem with him restoring...? He's already been in many years, and plans to stay and retire there.

I would LOVE it if somebody in the reserve had an issue with it. Then a restorer could sue for reasonable accomodation under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

[/sunrise/]

Ah, I don't think he can keep the glans covered, unless he uses his fingers to hold the skin in place. When he lets go, it relaxes back to its original place.
Yes, I think he's a grower (grower = erect size much bigger than when relaxed? shower = always looks big?)


About the army: (yes, we are in USA) I'm guessing it would be more difficult for him to... hmm.. keep clean, if he's restored? If he's deployed, or out in the field, for example. Sometimes all they have to clean are baby wipes (though I imagine they got some water from a canteen, got to ask him).

Also, if a problem comes up, and a doctor say "hey, we got to circumcise you to fix this" (like they do with uncut men) he would accept their word, not mine, when I say that there are alternatives.


His shower habits are so terrible (even though he showers every day and I don't), in a way that sometimes I'm glad he's cut.

In the time we have been together, I had to teach him how to clean under his nails, how to clean behind his ears, between his toes, and so many places he misses when he's on the shower (Oh, I'm sorry, it feels like nagging, but I had to, you know?)

So I think if he restores, I'm going to have to mother him -- teach him how to clean there .


Thanks for the good discussion, all :D



edit: reading this thread, very helpful. (http://www.foreskin-restoration.net/forum/showthread.php?p=72418#post72418)

[person_person]

make sure he dosnt wear a device will training though cause that could cause damage if he falls or something

[greg_b]

...
About the army: (yes, we are in USA) I'm guessing it would be more difficult for him to... hmm.. keep clean, if he's restored? If he's deployed, or out in the field, for example. Sometimes all they have to clean are baby wipes (though I imagine they got some water from a canteen, got to ask him).

Also, if a problem comes up, and a doctor say "hey, we got to circumcise you to fix this" (like they do with uncut men) he would accept their word, not mine, when I say that there are alternatives.


His shower habits are so terrible (even though he showers every day and I don't), in a way that sometimes I'm glad he's cut.

In the time we have been together, I had to teach him how to clean under his nails, how to clean behind his ears, between his toes, and so many places he misses when he's on the shower (Oh, I'm sorry, it feels like nagging, but I had to, you know?)

So I think if he restores, I'm going to have to mother him -- teach him how to clean there .

Thanks for the good discussion, all :D

edit: reading this thread, very helpful. (http://www.foreskin-restoration.net/forum/showthread.php?p=72418#post72418)

Glad we can help. Here are some thoughts for you to ponder:

While in the armed forces, my thought is to only do manual if very motivated, otherwise wait until discharged. Manual is good as it is done for very short periods, and you do not need anything except your hands. That said, in the military, you do nto have much time to do anything, and there is a lot going on mentally and physically, so it is completely reasonable in my mind to put restoration off.

Most men in the armed forces world-wide are intact. They have no problems keeping things clean enough for their purposes. Virtually all of the hunter gathers and other primitive people were intact. They were able to keep things clean. He will have no trouble keeping things clean. He may not be able to keep up the standards that we civilians enjoy in the US, but an intact penis is no liability. If you are interested in what he may go through, there is a great historical fiction book, but quite graphic, of military life called Matterhorn by Karl Marlantes. It may give you some insight in what things can be like.

No one is likely to advise to circumcise while he is in the army, but he should do his own research before being in that situation. Otherwise, he is at the mercy of doctors who may be clueless.

You may have some re-teaching to do when he is discharged. Personal hygien standars are not universal, in the US we tend to be hypersensitive and set very high standards. All fine and well when you are here in the US with all our modern conveniences, but away from that , some of our preferences may be a bit much.

It is not hard to teach a guy to clean under his foreskin. What guy is not willing to play with his penis a bit more? All it takes is a quick rinse with water. Nothing to it. And it can feel quite good. The real danger is he might like doing it too much....smile.

Regards

[admin]

I'm guessing it would be more difficult for him to... hmm.. keep clean, if he's restored?

If someone restored gets into any situation where they'd rather pass as circumcised, they CAN do it in a second. This is NEVER an issue.

And keeping hygenic is NOT an issue for intact guys. In fact, in a situation with no running water for washing, the intact or fully restored guy is way ahead. He can just grip the end of his foreskin before urinating, which will force the sterile urine exiting his body to swirl around within the foreskin before gushing out the end. This sort of flushing action is how all mammals are seemingly designed to stay hygenic.

99% of the soldiers in the American Revolution, War of 1812, and US Civil War were intact. You will have a very hard time coming up with any evidence of pervasive foreskin problems among those troops. I couldn't.

[intact]

please stop the intact-is-dirty-as-heck insanity! there is NOTHING dirty about it! I do not get why people think that surgery will make you cleaner?
Armpit removal? Anus circumcision anyone?

come on people! we are born this way for a reason
and no doctor has ever fixed anything by circ. this is cultural medicine.

[TopHat]

please stop the intact-is-dirty-as-heck insanity! there is NOTHING dirty about it! I do not get why people think that surgery will make you cleaner?

Not that it justifies circumcision or anything, but the cultural brainwashing about the "dirtiness" or otherwise problematic nature of being intact is hard to break even for people who are against circumcision sometimes just because some people have had those ideas drilled into their head from an early age.

Hell, I've even known some people who have come out against circumcision and left their own boys intact yet still regarded the foreskin as something unusual or potentially cumbersome. This stuff runs deep.

[admin]

the cultural brainwashing about the "dirtiness" or otherwise problematic nature of being intact is hard to break even for people who are against circumcision

Ugh.

Ask them how the fuck they think we evolved for 65 million years requiring all this soap or surgery? Ask them how thoroughly they scrub all up inside their daughter's vagina?

[intact]

Ugh.

Ask them how the fuck they think we evolved for 65 million years requiring all this soap or surgery? Ask them how thoroughly they scrub all up inside their daughter's vagina?

thats true, I mean I once in my lifetime encountered a girl in puberty that STANK of fish down there. you all know what im talking about. therefore due to that one chick I think all girls should have some kinda surgery bla bla old news

[photenman]

Hey sunrise,

You can buy the Your-Skin Cone from TLCTugger.com for about $9. You just push the head/end of the penis in a little, there is a skin tube on the sides, and the cone stays on. Starting there is easy. Just wear it for a few weeks and the results are great: the glans starts to turn rosy and is more sensitive again.

Your man has some foreskin to start with, so he is way ahead of a lot of other men if he starts to restore. It will be much faster for him. I had zippo and after two years, I have foreskin that glides over the glans and back (a very different feeling), and much more sensitivity. I feel the "gliding action" in intercourse and it is wonderful. My wife notices it too, less friction, discomfort, more unity, physical and emotional. So it would be great if you could get him on the program.

I like the TLC-X but I'm sure the TLC Tugger would do the same thing. After seeing improvement with the cone, in my case, I was "all in" for using the device, and it has paid off. Even after one year sex was much better.

You might like to read Sex As Nature Intended It. Some people find it annoying and commercial, but I think it gets it right, that cut men bang away while intact men don't. http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/. When you restore, you get close to feeling like and acting like an intact man. It won't be easy but if you can broach the subject, maybe he will sign up. No man wants to hurt his partner; he probably doesn't know. Bad sex is not going to be good for the relationship long term. Good luck, hope this all works out!

[/sunrise/]

He can just grip the end of his foreskin before urinating, which will force the sterile urine exiting his body to swirl around within the foreskin before gushing out the end. This sort of flushing action is how all mammals are seemingly designed to stay hygenic.
That's really neat!
please stop the intact-is-dirty-as-heck insanity! there is NOTHING dirty about it!
I'm not! I'm not saying intact is dirty. Hey, I come from a country where circumcision in only done in serious cases when there is no alternative. I love intact penises!

Hey, I have my own vulva lips to clean, I know how it is!

I'm just saying my particular man IS dirty. He just is. For someone who takes showers every morning, he doesn't clean well at all... Showering everyday is pointless if you don't know how to clean! ;-)
That's why I was worried.

Your man has some foreskin to start with, so he is way ahead of a lot of other men if he starts to restore. It will be much faster for him. I had zippo and after two years, I have foreskin that glides over the glans and back (a very different feeling), and much more sensitivity. I feel the "gliding action" in intercourse and it is wonderful. My wife notices it too, less friction, discomfort, more unity, physical and emotional. So it would be great if you could get him on the program.I'm so happy this worked out for you! I know what you are feeling... it's wonderful... I'm glad that you and your wife don't have to miss out on that experience..!

I like the TLC-X but I'm sure the TLC Tugger would do the same thing. After seeing improvement with the cone, in my case, I was "all in" for using the device, and it has paid off. Even after one year sex was much better.I read other men here talk about that, it seems once you try it, you're sold :-) That's what I'm counting on. That he will try it, notice some good things, and want to keep going. I hope he does...
It makes me sad that the person I love the most can't have this amazing sex I've experienced... It really makes my heart feel tight and hurt. How could someone deny it to him...

You might like to read Sex As Nature Intended It. Some people find it annoying and commercial, but I think it gets it right, that cut men bang away while intact men don't.Well.. it's true! ;-)
I'll give the book a read, thanks.

http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/. When you restore, you get close to feeling like and acting like an intact man. It won't be easy but if you can broach the subject, maybe he will sign up. No man wants to hurt his partner; he probably doesn't know. Bad sex is not going to be good for the relationship long term.You are right about that. Now that I found out why I'm unsatisfied with him vs other men, I'm resentful to have to stay with him for the rest of my life ... even though it's not his fault :(



Anyway.. updates....

He and I have been talking about this subject. It's very difficult for him to be honest (with anything) with me, but I learned how he was feeling... that's not for me to talk about here, but I'm glad he could tell me.

Like I've told him, I feel horrible that both of us are missing out on so much... him, specially, since he has never felt what intact sex feels like.
It's a delicious fruit that he has never experienced. I can't wait until he tries it :D

[thnskn]

you resent having to stay with him the rest of your life? Seems like there's bigger problems than his pee-pee?

[AnonL]

Reading this was heartwarming because you seem like a very nurturing person who loves your BF a lot. It's also painful though to hear about how much circumcision ruins love and intimacy. It gives me motivation to restore, even though the process is humiliating to me and feels extremely uncomfortable physically. Just realize that your BF may feel a lot of shame and self hatred. I've seen several women on this board expressing grief about what they are missing out on with a circumcised partner. Their reasons are perfectly valid and justified, but I would feel extremely bad if I were their partner and reading that.

[/sunrise/]

you resent having to stay with him the rest of your life? Seems like there's bigger problems than his pee-pee?
Sexual intimacy is very important to me in relationships. Since I know what I am missing, from experience, yes, I am a bit scared of having to live with less for my entire life.

If you are a woman who has had sex with an intact man, you would understand.

No matter how great a man is, no matter his technique in bed, he cannot give me that feeling I have with an intact man. It's sad, but it's the truth.

That doesn't mean I love him any less.

I AM staying with him, I won't leave him because of this. But it's a big loss, for me. I shouldn't have to be missing this wonderful intimate experience with the person I want to spend the rest of my life with!

I realize this is much worse for him, in fact... since he's never felt what I have :( At-least I can look back and remember those times with fondness. But him? He will always have to live not knowing what he's missing.

Reading this was heartwarming because you seem like a very nurturing person who loves your BF a lot. It's also painful though to hear about how much circumcision ruins love and intimacy. It gives me motivation to restore, even though the process is humiliating to me and feels extremely uncomfortable physically. Just realize that your BF may feel a lot of shame and self hatred. I've seen several women on this board expressing grief about what they are missing out on with a circumcised partner. Their reasons are perfectly valid and justified, but I would feel extremely bad if I were their partner and reading that.

I understand.
It feels like either way we are trapped, we can't talk about it in fear of hurting our men, but if we keep our mouths shut, we suffer alone.

When I posted here I wasn't sure if I should have... but I was going through rough times because of sex, and I couldn't hold it anymore. I had no where else to go.

What I would tell you (or my boyfriend) is that you shouldn't feel shame or self-hatred, none of this is your fault, really, all you can do is try and make the best of it.

But I know what I say is meaningless until you yourself (and other men) believe it. I highly doubt I would believe it if I were in your place.

Even though you may feel shame, and feel hurt, I hope that the advantages of restoring bring you happiness... from what I read on this board, each little change that happens as you restore seem to make sex more wonderful.

So please be happy and smile as you notice each and every change, no matter how little! :)

[/sunrise/]

you resent having to stay with him the rest of your life? Seems like there's bigger problems than his pee-pee?
Let me give you one little example, so you see what I'm talking about here.

I love giving blow jobs and hand jobs.
But I will not do it for him. I'm not a machine, I simply can't do it, physically. Not to mention it makes me feel super gross, doing it that way. You know what I mean.

When giving a blow job to intact men, it was gentle, and so arousing for me. The penis practically does all the work. I don't need to be a super-charged machine, as if I've been given a super dose of caffeine and sugar.

I want to do blow jobs for him so much, but I can't. I won't. :(

[intact]

Let me give you one little example, so you see what I'm talking about here.

I love giving blow jobs and hand jobs.
But I will not do it for him. I'm not a machine, I simply can't do it, physically. Not to mention it makes me feel super gross, doing it that way. You know what I mean.

When giving a blow job to intact men, it was gentle, and so arousing for me. The penis practically does all the work. I don't need to be a super-charged machine, as if I've been given a super dose of caffeine and sugar.

I want to do blow jobs for him so much, but I can't. I won't. :(

i feel ya. if i was going to lick some cut vagina... jeez.

[oh my toe sis]

Sunrise! You're the perfect woman!

Only thing I need to comment on is your negative attitude and not willing to go all the way with him in a deep, honest conversation about all this stuff and comparing him to other intact men. Only after such a conversation can you two either sit down and figure things out and decide if you're meant for each other or not. Without such deep openness, and he sounds shut off, can you make your final decision- stay or run. I personally think you have already made the decision to run but are such a DEEP person you want to give every last opportunity to make it work, despite you having to settle for less than what you want and EXPECT to attain in a lifelong relationship. After all, NOW is the time to be truthful to yourself. What the HELL do you WANT? You can try to change him, but at this point, you two have had to beginning conversation about restoring. So he knows it's out there! He is in what I call the "silent denial" period. He is oblivious to the negative aspects of being cir'd, just as I was for 44 years until I found the NORM website. NORM stands for Natl. Org. of Restoring Men. In their webpage I learned seven years ago what I lost during RIC at my birth. "WTF, I thought things were just fine all my life", I remember saying to myself. Then I was no longer in silent denial. The truth was in my head for ever. My wife is just the opposite of you, she was in silent denial also in that she had never experienced an intact penis and was ruthlessly in favor of cut EVERY PENIS OUT THERE! The NORM webpage changed her thinking from stout circ supporter to an understanding and supporter of my quest to be back to what nature intended as an intact man. Maybe the Lost page can help you two do the same. Time is marching on, WTF are you going to do?

[thnskn]

Sunrise, thank you very much for your honesty. On balance, your post is a positive for restoring men, though it hits hard at the heart of our issues. I have a lady friend who claims she prefers the circumcised penis, and refers to the foreskin as a funny looking hood. She went so far as to say she could never date an *uncircumsized* man. We see the movie "Shame" together and she's been drouling over Michael Fassbender's intact willy ever since. The mixed messages makes me wonder what the truth is. She has a lot of hostility towards men via her father, thus sees cutting a penis as a symbol of our emasculation, which her subconscious approves of? I don't understand the notion that what God/Nature gave a man could be anything but the preferred state, as much as I couldn't imagine telling my friend I could only have sex with her if she has her clitoral hood removed, and while she's at it, cut the inner labia off to assure I'm comfortable with her sexually. Makes me sick even thinking about it.

[/sunrise/]

(By the way, in case someone wonders why I use so much detail... it's so I can share with others what I've learned. I hope others share too.)

Hmm are you saying I should be completely honest with him, even as far as to compare him with other men? I think his heart would just shatter. He already has such a huge failure/rejection complex.

I would like him to learn about this so that whether or not he restores, we can both do things to make sex more pleasurable... for me... since he enjoys himself just fine, he says.

For example, with the position I described earlier in this thread, we can both relax and caress/kiss each other. In other positions, he has to concentrate so much, neither of us is able to kiss or caress each other because of his jerky movement. I end up just laying down waiting.

Yesterday I was able to orgasm through intercourse with him again, it was great :) It's kind of funny, when that happens, it seems we act towards each other differently after sex. It's not me, him too. Our kissing/cuddling is different... my heart rate is very slow (I'm very calm), and I can actually sleep instead of heading the the kitchen to scarf down some cookies to abate my anger :D

We had sex the day before, and we both were really frustrated that day. Thankfully later that day, we took it as a learning opportunity.


What the HELL do you WANT? I want this man, and I want to be able to have wonderful sex with him.
Is that too much to ask for? :p

I stay with him because this one thing is not worth breaking up after. Even if I left him over this... then what? Am I going to date around until I find a man with a foreskin? Sounds silly.

Yes, it's true, I feel like for the rest of my life, I'm going to be thirsty, and then I'm given a drink that makes me thirstier.
No one wants to live like that.

But I do love him, so... *shrug*

My wife is just the opposite of you, she was in silent denial also in that she had never experienced an intact penis and was ruthlessly in favor of cut Ah, I see. I don't know how I was so lucky, but I had intact partners before my current boyfriend. Even when I lost my virginity, sex went pretty easy... it was lots of fun... nothing like the scary thing people make it out to be.

I didn't even know there was such a thing as a "cut" penis ("isn't that something only jews do? and it's just a little tiny cut?" that's what I thought). I thought my boyfriend's penis just looked different like people's noses and eyes look different.

In another (unrelated forum), someone was looking for help on how to get her man to orgasm through intercourse (ha!) ...
I had already found out about circumcision when I tried to learn about various parenting topics, but it was in that thread that I learned how circumcision affects men and women in bed.

With the stigma regarding intact penises, it's no wonder your wife feels the way she does. I guess it's just something you need to realize on your own.

*sigh*

This must be the Lost page you're talking about:
http://www.norm.org/lost.html
I like the way it's written, it's really mild. I bet reading that page would make him feel like it's not worth going through foreskin restoration, though. Poor thing...!

It feels almost mean to show someone that so many things cannot be restored. (I mean, there's nothing he can do about those things, so why hurt him?)

[/sunrise/]

Sunrise, thank you very much for your honesty. On balance, your post is a positive for restoring men, though it hits hard at the heart of our issues. I have a lady friend who claims she prefers the circumcised penis, and refers to the foreskin as a funny looking hood.
Oh, ask her ... if HER clitoris prepuce (foreskin = male prepuce) is a funny looking hood too? :p
We women have our glans covered with a hood, just like intact men. I can't imagine what it would be like walking around with the clitoris completely uncovered all the time.

She went so far as to say she could never date an *uncircumsized* man. Wow, all those European women, where I came from... ooooh, I feel so sad for my sisters back home! Having to put up with those intact, perfectly natural men! Oh, the horror!


I don't understand the notion that what God/Nature gave a man could be anything but the preferred stateThat's what I think too. But if you tell her that, she will probably say "But we shave our legs! And you shave your face! God/Nature put that hair there for a reason too!"

[insideout]

Sunrise, I've been thinking so much about your posts since I first encountered them.

My girlfriend has been with both intact and cut men. (I'm cut, and still in the very beginning of restoration.) I've begged her to be completely honest with me and tell me what she prefers, and how I can do better. She tells me that I'm best she's had, circumcised or not, and I should stop worrying.

Given the stories like yours, and commentaries by women about the effects of male genital cutting on their sexual experiences, I can't imagine how a cut penis would ever be completely OK for a woman. However, she's genuinely perplexed that I think there is a problem, and she finds my interest in restoration a little confusing given what she describes as complete satisfaction with our sex life.

Now, there are certainly things that are missing. I can't get off easily from a blowjob, but then, perhaps we are in a kind of balance because she also takes a very long time to climax when I go down on her. In our case, these are minor issues as we both are much more interested in having sex, but they are boundaries which I want to abolish as much as I can by exercising some choice over how much skin I have on my penis.

What I wanted to say, which is relevant but takes this background to really convey, is that I have substantially changed how I have sex over time to adjust for the fact of my circumcision. I do not think that my partner would feel the same way about my circumcision and our sex if she was with me before I made these changes and if I was the first cut guy she was with.

When I first became sexually active, I absolutely used too much friction for myself and my partner(s). Sex was not easy--- at first it was rough and complicated. I had a painful adolescence in which my erections were so tight that they hurt and I had skin/shaft adhesions over much of the ventral side of my penis. I couldn't treat myself sensitively, and as a result it was difficult for me to connect with the normal sensitivity of intact women. As you can imagine, in that state it's hard to understand the natural physical patterns which should play out during arousal and stimulation. It's hard to connect with yourself!

Circumcisions are very different, and each person experiences the effects differently. I was left with enough of my natural sensitivity to make great changes without physical restoration. In my case, the inhibition of self-understanding caused by circumcision was the limiting factor in my sexual experience.

I slowly became aware of what circumcision does through reading and talking with other partners who had been with both intact and cut men. As I did, everything changed. I learned about how the penis and vagina are supposed to interact, and I changed the way that I moved. I imagine that I am massaging my partner's vagina, not starting a fire. I learned that being rough with myself when masturbating would decrease my sensitivity and make sex more difficult, and I am as gentle as possible with myself, even if it doesn't work as quickly as I want. When masturbating, I learned to move the outer foreskin up as far as I could, getting a tiny rollover with each pull, and over the course of years that slowly resolved the adhesions and excessive tightness. (What's amazing is that this wasn't obvious to me until I learned more about foreskin! The pleasure is less intense than friction, but more satisfying.) I resist the urge to push deep into my partner and drag the hairs on the shaft of my penis into her vagina, as this doesn't seem to accomplish anything but briefly enhance my sensation at the expense of her inner labia. I focus on what I have, and accept that the path to the most pleasurable experience may not be the most obvious one, but it does feel so incredibly natural and wonderful once I head down it.

After all this learning, the sex that my girlfriend and I have is very much like what you experienced with your intact partners. It is gentle, and connecting. Time stops and we become the only people in the world. Usually, she comes, and then I do shortly after. We cry sometimes. And when things work out, I have an orgasm that causes me to shout and yelp and shiver for ten minutes afterwards. It can happen even if you are cut.

I'm here because, no matter how well I cope, I simply need more skin on my penis to protect myself against the inevitable decline of sensitivity caused by permanent retraction. I am determined to grow some skin, and am using manual methods as a kind of (gentle) stretching massage several times a day. It seems that the little I've done has already had wonderful effects. If anything, just the added focus on what I feel has reconnected pathways which had been in slow decline and disrepair.

I think you should be as honest with your partner as possible about what you need and what is possible for him to do. All these changes took many years to realize, but I wouldn't have if I never accepted that circumcision does have profound effects on both men and women. Restoration is a wonderful way for men to recover what has been taken from them, but it doesn't have to mean completely recovering your penis in skin. I think that we can do a lot just by restoring ourselves psychologically.

[oh my toe sis]

I see you stated you're from Europe. I imagine there is a huge culture shock/difference you have to live with. I want to ask your age and how long you have been in the US?

Along the same topic of Europe vs US views of sex, there is such a wide spread here in the feelings of Americans about sex. On one hand we are addicted to porn and girls gone wild but shut down tight when an open discussion about sex starts. It's no wonder young men who become sexually active are clueless, girls too. Too many mixed messages constantly barrage young minds and none of it is healthy and nurturing towards developing relationships when that time comes.

As men watch porn, it is such an escape from reality of what sex should be we can only blame it for our own ignorance of how to properly treat a woman in bed. Add to that my earlier view of we can't seem to wrap our selves into an open sexually educational conversation with out being embarrassed . It's a shame.

I would like to have the e-book, Sex As Nature Intended, made mandatory in high school for all to read. What do you think?

[/sunrise/]

(I split my 3 posts so they are easier to read)


She tells me that I'm best she's had, circumcised or not, and I should stop worrying.Hey, sounds good to me! :)

Given the stories like yours, and commentaries by women about the effects of male genital cutting on their sexual experiences, I can't imagine how a cut penis would ever be completely OK for a woman. She might have different preferences. Maybe she finds slow, sensual sex boring?

Now, there are certainly things that are missing. I can't get off easily from a blowjob

but then, perhaps we are in a kind of balance because she also takes a very long time to climax when I go down on her.I think it's really difficult to bring another to climax through oral. I mean, you don't know how what you do to her/him feels like at each moment, so you can't really know what you should do next. But perhaps you two are more open about this sort of thing than we are.

We tried yesterday, and he said that I nearly got him there, hurray! But I thought that I'd never get him to climax, so I stopped. Wished I hadn't.

I tried to use my mouth to make his own skin caress his glans, like you describe with masturbation. Now that I've noticed he has plenty of skin there, I can actually do it like I would with intact men. Now we're going to be making up for lost time! :p

I wanted to know how well I did and if he knew anything I could do to improve it. If you have some tips, throw them my way, because my boyfriend doesn't say much, hehe.

What I wanted to say, which is relevant but takes this background to really convey, is that I have substantially changed how I have sex over time to adjust for the fact of my circumcision. I do not think that my partner would feel the same way about my circumcision and our sex if she was with me before I made these changes and if I was the first cut guy she was with.Hmm, I wonder too.
I finally understood that even if I climaxed with my current boyfriend, it was because of adrenaline. It's a fight or flight sensation, really scary but also really intense. It SEEMS like it's an orgasm when it happens, but it's not. I'm too pumped up and anxious, and often I'll stay up all night.
But if that's all I knew, I'd think that's what it was: an orgasm.

The orgasms I've had with intact men are nothing like that. It's so relaxing, I don't know how to describe it since my mind becomes blank, all I feel is the relaxing throbbing and that I'm going to completely collapse. I sleep easily after.
But maybe she prefers the adrenaline rush! :D Or maybe she has a true orgasm from it.
*shrug*

I slowly became aware of what circumcision does through reading and talking with other partners who had been with both intact and cut men. As I did, everything changed. I learned about how the penis and vagina are supposed to interact, and I changed the way that I moved.Good on you for being so open minded! It payed off, it seems :)

I imagine that I am massaging my partner's vagina, not starting a fire.Hehe, nice one!
From my experience, it seems that it's actually his pelvis rubbing on mine that gets me to orgasm. Well, THAT, and him kissing my breasts, I suppose.
Not quite sure how to explain it, but if he pulls his pelvis away from me, it stops feeling good for me.

It seems it feels good as long 1) his pelvis is rubbing/massaging mine 2) the thrusting rhythm is smooth/even. He can go deep into me.

I learned that being rough with myself when masturbating would decrease my sensitivity and make sex more difficult, and I am as gentle as possible with myself, even if it doesn't work as quickly as I want. Can you bring yourself to climax, being gentle like that? (If you don't mind saying )

When masturbating, I learned to move the outer foreskin up as far as I could, getting a tiny rollover with each pull, and over the course of years that slowly resolved the adhesions and excessive tightnessWow... that's great! Really, I wish people were taught that sort of stuff!
I resist the urge to push deep into my partner and drag the hairs on the shaft of my penis into her vaginaSeems like some men shave the hair there with an electric shaver, from what I've read here.
After all this learning, the sex that my girlfriend and I have is very much like what you experienced with your intact partners. It is gentle, and connecting. Time stops and we become the only people in the world. Usually, she comes, and then I do shortly after. We cry sometimes. And when things work out, I have an orgasm that causes me to shout and yelp and shiver for ten minutes afterwards. It can happen even if you are cut.Hmmmmmmm! That really sounds wonderful! I think you need to start a thread on all you have done to accomplish this, or all the ladies here are going to be bugging you, hehe!

Thank you for sharing your story, it was a really good read.

I'm here because, no matter how well I cope, I simply need more skin on my penis to protect myself against the inevitable decline of sensitivity caused by permanent retraction. I am determined to grow some skin, and am using manual methods as a kind of (gentle) stretching massage several times a day. It seems that the little I've done has already had wonderful effects. If anything, just the added focus on what I feel has reconnected pathways which had been in slow decline and disrepair.Hey, what do you have to lose, right?
I would think even if there's only 0.01% improvement, it was worth it!

I think you should be as honest with your partner as possible about what you need and what is possible for him to do. All these changes took many years to realize, but I wouldn't have if I never accepted that circumcision does have profound effects on both men and women. Restoration is a wonderful way for men to recover what has been taken from them, but it doesn't have to mean completely recovering your penis in skin. I think that we can do a lot just by restoring ourselves psychologically.I'm trying, and thankfully it's helping. He is even starting to be more open about talking about sex and non-sex things.

It's difficult to talk about it without having him feel bad. But I guess it's unavoidable.

[/sunrise/]

I see you stated you're from Europe. I imagine there is a huge culture shock/difference you have to live with. I want to ask your age and how long you have been in the US?
I'm in my mid-twenties, moved here at 16. Actually I didn't even notice culture shock at first, it was all pretty smooth. And then it suddenly hit me. BONK!

there is such a wide spread here in the feelings of Americans about sex. On one hand we are addicted to porn and girls gone wild but shut down tight when an open discussion about sex starts. Oh dear, that's so true! But I think those few people who can be open set up a good example which others eventually follow :)

As men watch porn, it is such an escape from reality of what sex should be we can only blame it for our own ignorance of how to properly treat a woman in bed. Add to that my earlier view of we can't seem to wrap our selves into an open sexually educational conversation with out being embarrassed . It's a shame.Ugh, yes. After being with my circumcised partner, I kept wondering why our sex wasn't enjoyable.
Doesn't he love me? (Of course he does! )
Am I not attractive enough? (You kidding? I'm quite good looking, TYVM!)
Is he concentrating so hard because he's thinking of other women? (Hmm.. sure, maybe... but concentrating so much that he forgets I'm even there?)
Does he have to do humiliating things to me to enjoy sex? So, that means he's a sicko? (Uh, no he's not!)

So eventually I figured it out (not!): I thought "Well, maybe I'm just not slutty enough. I need to be disgusting like in porn". Eek. That was a sad path we went through.
We could have avoided all this if we could have been 100% honest with each other about embarrassing things.

I'm glad I now understand what's really going on, so I have finally healed from all the issues I started suffering from while dating him (insecurity, body image, thinking I had to be slutty, which was humiliating, paranoia/jealousy, etc, which I had never had problems with before)

I'm sure he is also healing, by being honest with me... yes, it makes him vulnerable, but it's necessary for us to grow together.

I literally cringed during sex, our actions were so icky, I felt like I was in a horror movie.
But now things are changing. He is becoming softer in the way he kisses and caresses me, like my previous partners. It's a slow process, but I have faith that it is working :D

I would like to have the e-book, Sex As Nature Intended, made mandatory in high school for all to read. What do you think?Hmm I don't know... I read it recently, I don't really like the tone of her writing.
But the website (http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/10F/1hook_scrapes.html) has some good educational information, so I think that would be interesting to learn in school :)
I don't think America is ready for it, though, most people are not this open minded about things, let alone sex. Teenagers would love to learn this stuff, but most parents here would not allow it.

[/sunrise/]

One update, and 2 questions.
Update (actually, it's an old update):
He's been doing some manual tugging! I looked at him and was surprised that I'd never noticed he had so much skin behind his glans... so I asked if he'd been tugging,... "Yes...", he responded meekly :D
He's been doing manual tugging.

(Feel free to send me a private message if you don't want to reply in public)

Question: So as you all may have noticed, he is not as open about sex/learning as I am, though that is starting to improve. Naturally, he'll often say things because he thinks that's what I want to hear. So...

I asked him if the reason he doesn't climax during sex is because he feels like he has "to keep it up" for a loooooong time, and if because of that, he won't let go and climax (you know, since there's a stigma against men who don't last long during intercourse...)
He says "no, he makes it last long because he wants to please me".

Isn't that a "Yes", then? Or do I misunderstand what he's saying?

The reason I ask is that I would prefer if sex duration is short, even if I don't orgasm every time, I would be happier knowing that he got satisfaction.

Another question: when I want to learn if he likes things a certain way vs another, he says that "he likes anything"... yes, BUT I want to know if certain things feel better than others so I can help him climax easier...
So... could other men enlighten me... do you think he means that, or is he just saying that to make me happy? :confused:

In case you are wondering why I'm asking you instead of him, it's because he seems to go silent / shutdown if I persist / ask for clarification :p

[AnonL]

I asked him if the reason he doesn't climax during sex is because he feels like he has "to keep it up" for a loooooong time, and if because of that, he won't let go and climax (you know, since there's a stigma against men who don't last long during intercourse...)
He says "no, he makes it last long because he wants to please me".

Isn't that a "Yes", then? Or do I misunderstand what he's saying?

The reason I ask is that I would prefer if sex duration is short, even if I don't orgasm every time, I would be happier knowing that he got satisfaction.
:p

Great to hear that he's tugging, good for him. As for your question, it's pretty impossible to answer without being in his shoes. For myself, it's very hard to orgasm without using my hands. It takes a long time and it is exhausting and not very pleasurable. You have to keep up a constant fast motion and if you slow down at all the build up to orgasm completely fades. Again though it is impossible to answer for him, same thing for the second question. I think I would have an extremely hard time talking about it, if not for the anonymity of the internet and being among fellow restorers.

[insideout]

She might have different preferences. Maybe she finds slow, sensual sex boring?

Ah, it's not quite like that. I think she likes things as connected and sensual as possible :)

Without being a woman, it's hard to really know what's different in the moment-to-moment sensations. I want to know, and I want to overcome those differences as much as possible. However, when a partner with experience with intact men says "hey, it's perfect, I don't even know what could change to make it better" the continued belief that there is something fundamentally or irreparably wrong in the experience of the woman starts to seem like amplified anxiety and craziness. But, I don't know... I am still feeling anxious and crazy about it. Does she really know the difference? Re-hashing these things has only annoyed my girlfriend--- it's best for me to trust her.

I think it's really difficult to bring another to climax through oral. I mean, you don't know how what you do to her/him feels like at each moment, so you can't really know what you should do next. But perhaps you two are more open about this sort of thing than we are.

We tried yesterday, and he said that I nearly got him there, hurray! But I thought that I'd never get him to climax, so I stopped. Wished I hadn't.

I tried to use my mouth to make his own skin caress his glans, like you describe with masturbation. Now that I've noticed he has plenty of skin there, I can actually do it like I
would with intact men. Now we're going to be making up for lost time! :p

It's really remarkable how fast the skin can grow. Tiny changes have made a huge difference for me. Hopefully he'll get addicted to the improvement :)

What you're describing is very familiar. With diminished sensitivity, it's hard to reach climax from oral and be completely relaxed. Only a few times in my life did that happen :(, and each was very special.

I hope that restoring will help. Nothing makes me feel more mutilated than oral sex. In some relationships there has been a really depressing imbalance between how much I give and receive (probably 20:1). I can't even ask for it because I know it's so much work, but it also hurts deeply that I am always giving but never receiving.

I wanted to know how well I did and if he knew anything I could do to improve it. If you have some tips, throw them my way, because my boyfriend doesn't say much, hehe.

Ask him where he is most sensitive :) Touch him as lightly as possible to keep increasing arousal. I think that this level is really hard to figure out for a circumcised man. You'll simply have to talk.

Hmm, I wonder too.
I finally understood that even if I climaxed with my current boyfriend, it was because of adrenaline. It's a fight or flight sensation, really scary but also really intense. It SEEMS like it's an orgasm when it happens, but it's not. I'm too pumped up and anxious, and often I'll stay up all night.
But if that's all I knew, I'd think that's what it was: an orgasm.

The orgasms I've had with intact men are nothing like that. It's so relaxing, I don't know how to describe it since my mind becomes blank, all I feel is the relaxing throbbing and that I'm going to completely collapse. I sleep easily after.
But maybe she prefers the adrenaline rush! :D Or maybe she has a true orgasm from it.
*shrug*

It might take me more focus to bring her there, but it seems to be exactly what you describe as natural and relaxing, not fight or flight. If we have sex in the middle of the day and we climax together, she'll often fall into a deep sleep even if she's not that tired to begin with. It's been consistent with various partners.

If things are too fast or intense, my girlfriend will say to slow down and relax. If she does climax in that state, it's more what you describe. Sometimes she says she has a "half orgasm", as if the release isn't as complete as she'd like. Usually she attributes this to having too little foreplay, so I try to be careful to have enough.

From my experience, it seems that it's actually his pelvis rubbing on mine that gets me to orgasm. Well, THAT, and him kissing my breasts, I suppose.
Not quite sure how to explain it, but if he pulls his pelvis away from me, it stops feeling good for me.

It seems it feels good as long 1) his pelvis is rubbing/massaging mine 2) the thrusting rhythm is smooth/even. He can go deep into me.

This makes a lot of sense, and must vary a lot depending on the couple. I can't really go that deep into my partner, so we use different positions to bring our pelvises into contact. The even/smooth aspect is something I intuitively get but never thought about distinctly.

In my experience, there's huge variability in how women reach orgasm during vaginal sex. Some seem to need pelvis/pelvis contact. Some need to touch themselves a little to pull themselves to the edge. And some seem to just orgasm repeatedly from vaginal stimulation alone.

Can you bring yourself to climax, being gentle like that? (If you don't mind saying )

Yes. I started trying to a long time ago because I was having trouble reaching climax. I was getting too rough with myself. Sometimes it would just take so long that my arm would get tired or I would get tired if it was late. I started by focusing on ways to increase arousal with as little stimulation as possible, and by tickling myself in various ways (slight tugs, very soft touch, etc.) I can get really close to climax. There is a definite psychological aspect to this--- not fantasy, but release--- a whole-mind arousal. It's not reflex-level. I guess that the thickened skin, dryness, and difficulty in bringing the mucosa in contact with itself prevent the reflex from dominating. (Also, some removed structures, like the ridged bands, must play a role in reflex arousal, but some guys who have been intact, cut, and restored don't seem to think they matter much overall, and I have no idea.)

If it's been a day or two since I had an orgasm and I take this self-teasing to the extreme, and when I am extremely aroused, I can pull down on my frenulum (remnant) rhythmically and I come to climax. But, usually, I just pull the foreskin remnant up and down as if I have a phantom foreskin, which has the same effect as the above two techniques, but does them at the same time with more stimulation. I don't touch the glans ever. It's erogenous, but it just doesn't seem to push me to climax when I touch it with my hands.

Things also progress much, much faster if I tighten my PC muscle rhythmically to stimulate my prostate. This doesn't allow me to relax as much, but it does push me to orgasm really quickly. Women seem to do something similar, but it varies quite a bit. The orgasm isn't as nice as when I'm completely relaxed, and this is something I want to change about myself through restoration. I am already noticing differences in this regard, but it's not clear if it's because of my focus or actual improvements in sensitivity.

One thing which happened once I started focusing on sensitivity this way was that I begin to climax immediately after my partner. This happens almost all the time now. It's the surest way that I can reach orgasm. I feel like focus plays a big role here (I have to rise in arousal with her), but if I weren't sensitive enough the effect might not be strong enough to naturally work.

As others are saying, this all varies so much depending on the guy and what circumcision removed, so you'll learn the most talking with your partner. The point is just that you can retrain yourself to require less stimulation, just like you can retrain yourself to be less sensitive. I'm sure there are limits to this which each individual circumcision imposes.

Really, I wish people were taught that sort of stuff!

Me too. Should sex really require a lifetime of exploration to understand? I'm certain it would help if people were taught about sensitivity and arousal rather than taught how to take viagra.

Seems like some men shave the hair there with an electric shaver, from what I've read here.

I'm terrified to. When I was younger I had an ingrown hair on my shaft that turned into a large cyst because the skin was so tight. It had to be removed surgically. I don't want to risk ingrown hairs, and I'm going to try to avoid shaving and instead grow skin. Also, cutting the hair might make it harder for me gauge where to place tension.

Hmmmmmmm! That really sounds wonderful! I think you need to start a thread on all you have done to accomplish this, or all the ladies here are going to be bugging you, hehe!

Looks like you've already started it :)

Hey, what do you have to lose, right?
I would think even if there's only 0.01% improvement, it was worth it!

I'm trying, and thankfully it's helping. He is even starting to be more open about talking about sex and non-sex things.

It's difficult to talk about it without having him feel bad. But I guess it's unavoidable.

It's not his fault that he was born in a society which has had the barbaric habit of mutilating the genitals of infant boys. He didn't choose this, and neither did you. Help him feel that you are working together to overcome the changes that this causes for both of you, and that the result will be better than what he's experienced.

It sounds like both he and I have been restoring manually for the same amount of time.

Although the growth is very slow (1-2mm/week), the initial changes are rapid. My sensitivity levels are probably higher than they've ever been since I was very young. My inner foreskin is now folding up tightly behind the corona, and it is rapidly thinning and softening. It is purple in places that are always covered/folded. I am feeling a kind of release in orgasm that I previously thought was missing or extremely unusual. Just touching myself in manual tugging/massage is serving as a kind of positive feedback. It feels like the process re-training sensory components that had been overwhelmed by the sensual noise caused by going around retracted my entire life.

Phew, ok.... I hope this wall of text helps somewhat. It helped to write.

[Skinned Alive]

Question: So as you all may have noticed, he is not as open about sex/learning as I am, though that is starting to improve. Naturally, he'll often say things because he thinks that's what I want to hear. So...

I asked him if the reason he doesn't climax during sex is because he feels like he has "to keep it up" for a loooooong time, and if because of that, he won't let go and climax (you know, since there's a stigma against men who don't last long during intercourse...)
He says "no, he makes it last long because he wants to please me".

Isn't that a "Yes", then? Or do I misunderstand what he's saying?

I think it's probably a little bit of an expectation to last forever and a little bit of genuinely wanting the experience to go on as long as pleasure is derived.

It's sort of an unspoken rule that you have to be able to go the distance especially with all the jokes that get tossed around about sex in general. That can apply an incredible amount of pressure and that pressure isn't going to do anyone any favors.

I can't tell you what he meant though as I don't know him and, that's why I'm not going to address the second question. I think you're just going to have to see if he will slowly become more communicative about the topic and, that can be incredibly difficult to do as it instinctively triggers defense mechanisms due to the repressed and spiteful nature of our culture.

[photenman]

When the circumcision rate in American was in the high 80 percent range, in the 60's I think, it would be rare for American women to have had sex with an intact man. But by the late 1980's, and now, the circumcision rate is close to 50%. So in a few years, many, even most, American women will have had sex with an intact men.

Hopefully soon, women will start making a whole lot of noise about how intact sex is much more satisfying physically and emotionally. We really need women on board with stopping circumcision.

So I think we should really welcome women to this forum and treat them with a lot of respect, so others will be open and honest and join in. Translation: guys can be aggressive and offensive, perhaps without realizing it. We need to tone it down in the Wives/Partners section, in my humble opinion.

[Mikey101]

Now I have a question for the men and women here:
* This is a really silly question, but do you think he was being honest about it feeling very good for him? I'm afraid he is saying it just because it was a position I could finally enjoy, so he wants to do it for me.
As in, "well, I'd better do this and say I like it, or she won't have sex with me for another couple of months!"
Thanks.. :-)

While only being able to relate to mine (and my partners) experiences, I can honestly say problems regarding 'circumcised' sex have never really come up in my experience, (except for masturbation) most women I've had relations with in the past have never masturbated a circ'd guy before, so it's a different technique for them. (also for me, I was circ'd later in life)

However, that's not to say that we shouldn't try to restore for improvement in sexual intercourse (which I believe will happen if pursued).
Hope that helped answer your question. :)

[roostorf]

Originally Posted by /sunrise/
"I think it's really difficult to bring another to climax through oral. I mean, you don't know how what you do to her/him feels like at each moment, so you can't really know what you should do next. But perhaps you two are more open about this sort of thing than we are."

I dont know how to use the quotes thing lol, but anyhow, I am circumsized and something about receiving oral is the best feeling ever. I'm not sure if its normal but when I orgasm from oral I'm guessing it is alot like a normal orgasm for someone intact, it is so intense I cant even control myself and have to refrain from pushing my girlfriend's head off me because I am literally overloaded with pleasure, and a part of me want her to keep going, but I am going through such an overload it almost like forcing yourself to keep your hand in a hot flame (except that doesnt feel good).

Vaginal sex is not at all like this for me, just oral. I dont think it is even possible for things to feel even more intense than this, even if I were hypothetically intact because all the circuits are all overloaded anyways. My girlfriends usually like to give me oral becuase they say it is really funny the way I react, and the intact guys I have been with dont even seem to react this way, but I also doubt I'm that good at giving oral to guys anyways since I'm usually with women.

I dont know what its like for others, but I'm circumsized and I highly recommend oral, it feels like how everything should feel:D

[/sunrise/]

Your reply makes me very happy :-) I agree, it's funny seeing the man's expression. But even so I still thought he was just faking it, silly me!

[bsidney]

I have had problems with getting off for many years. I usually could, but I had to have a lot of stimulation. All my friends would say that sex would be over for them in a few minutes. For me an hour or even 2 or 3 hours of sex was pretty usual. My wife liked to brag to her friends and some of them even made passes at me that I declined. Never told her though since I didn't want to ruin her friendships and I was able to handle it. She has always been ready for sex with me. I always wanted to experience very quick sex, but wasn't able to. My wife loved the long sex sessions. I learned how to orally satisfy women before we married. I was pretty bad at it at first. I learn that with women it was best to be soft and gentle. My wife always has at least one orgasm that way. Then one through vaginal sex and then it's my turn.

She has never been very good at oral. It has worked a few times. Then most times I amost make it, but she stops. I have had the same experience with many women. In the pornos the women lick the shaft and balls and then the glans rotating between them. Most women think that will work, but in a porno they are trying to not cum and make a full length movie. I know not everyone is the same, but maybe you can try what I am going to tell you and see if it works. For me the lower edge of my glans is what gets me off. If you suck moderately on the glans, not to hard, but more than a woman prefers. While you suck use your tongue to stimulate the lower edge of the glans. Try to keep your lips covering your teeth if you can. Keep doing that until he cums. Like me he may need constant stimulation of that area without interruption to get off. Other men don't mind the rotating of stimulation, but I find it very frustrating to get almost there and then she stops and licks the shaft down to my balls. That resets my stimulation and it is like starting all over. I have cum through oral but only in the way I described.

I am restoring and the stimulation required is much less now. I have full flaccid coverage now and it takes much less stimulation.

[swordofpeace]

Wow, does anybody think Sunrise deserves the Nobel prize? I do. Since starting off on this journey of discovery and grief I have met many outstanding women- mothers, girlfriends, wives, etc. You seem like a great girlfriend because you are so loving and understanding.

Circumcision causes mental confusion. I think this post makes that completely clear. It also causes resentment in relationships. The two things are a bad combination. So we have to make people conscious.

You are a great girlfriend. Yes you've got to be sensitive when broaching him but I think you've also got to be a broken record. Not a nag, a broken record. You cannot change anybody but you are entitled to want what you want and express those wants. I'm just starting out. I will explain what I'm doing to my girlfriend of the future, and why I'm doing it, and encourage her to research if she's interested. I hope I can find someone as understanding and loving as you. I used your original post as lesson material for those in my family who are avoiding painful truths. You are textbook material my sister. I'll see you around on this forum I hope.

[swordofpeace]

I feel your pain w.o.f.

We have to play the hand we are dealt. That's just a fact you and I have to deal with. I'm going to Germany in a few months to try live and work; I have some jobs lined up teaching English, and I want to stay there long term, so I will be like you in the land of the intact and it's actually what I prefer in some ways. (and I will talk about this issue to everyone so they can understand and appreciate the american trauma. I will be an educator as well as a learner). Why do you 'bet' these things w.o.f., and why don't you interview women and get to know the female soul and do more research and digging?

Tell us, Mrs Sunshine. What do you think? It's your opinion that counts the most. Can love be stronger than all of this?

Because some have said a foreskin acts as a filter against shallow (USA) women. Could we not in some ways say that the lack of foreskin acts as a filter against shallow and unworthy women, esp when we're trying to restore and take full responsibility for our condition? W.o.f. I don't like to hear a grown man make excuses and wallow in self-pity, but I feel your grief and I bear it myself.

Mrs Sunshine, want to give your reply to him and to me?

[swordofpeace]

Yes yes W.O.F. I agree with you, it is a real dilemma. So what are we going to do? All the same, we can still save women from loneliness. What if a woman hs trouble finding a man she loves and she's willing to be with you because you protect her and provide for her. I'm still waiting for Mary Sunrises answer. In her email she both said things that confirm your view- that she argued with her man and was angry even though he was a great guy, and with lesser men she was fine and happy. But she was also not conscious. It takes great will I'm sure and great soul. On the other hand, why does she still choose to be with him?

You w.o.f. are a noble soul for considering the woman's happiness. I appreciate that. What about women's oxytocin? That will bond them to you? Friction in sex creates friction in relationship, I understand so you have to have greater relationship skills probably. I have been learning how testosterone has been dropping in men the last fifty years. I think the two main things it takes to get and keep a women are simply masculinity (testosterone) and foreskin. We can become masculine and we can restore.

On the other hand last night I was really grieving. I told myself

First they rejected my foreskin because they didn't approve.
Then they rejected me because I didn't have any foreskin
And I think to myself what a wonderful world

Keep grieving
I will also keep believing

as far as you 'knowing' women and female brain chemistry, are you sure? You know the carnal but do you know the spiritual?
I'll end this on a negative note so I'm not accused of being overly optimistic. What they did was terrible and it took the center of our loving ability out of us. This will make it hard for us to find and keep a mate. It drastically reduces our loving powers and from it comes massive fallout in relationships in society. It is especially hard when one lives in a country where most are intact. It may lead one to a bitter and cynical end. If you're going to live a life of desperation, at least don't live a life of quiet desperation. Go down fighting. Make others appreciate what you have lost

[swordofpeace]

What about the bonding hormones that would normally enter my body through my inner foreskin? That's what I'm worried about. As far as emotional attachment and exchange of bonding chemicals is concerned, I'm not worried about the woman's side. I've always kind of resented women for "not being able to give me what I need", but it's just that my interface has been tampered with, especially the input.


Nicely played. That's the way to make me smile.


Can this happen if we restore our inner foreskin, and keep it covered so it becomes mucilaginous? Will we gain the ability to absorb estrogen and give off pheromones based on what we have left? Let us hope so. Let's hope nature is redundant. Does anybody know?

So you are not worried about her bonding to you?! If she bonds to you why would she leave? If you can make the bond happen she stays, but what did you say in earlier posts?
Can't you bond with her any other way? I found I bonded after sex with my girlfriend and that's before I knew any of this, and we cuddled. We had extra relationship friction than I think we would have had, and that's one of my main concerns, but after I restore it will be even better. Also going for walks in the park or garden, etc. Again ending negatively, I know those bastards took so much away that I'll never get back, not in this life anyway. I know that ever more clearly. I want to give a son the gift of foreskin one day so he can appreciate what I never had

[/sunrise/]

Nobel prize? Talk about over reacting :P I'm not a great girlfriend, I have faults like everyone else. And if I were so great I would have probably found a better way to talk with him about circumcision, instead of hurting him so much.

WOF as sad as it is, you're right, a lot of times lately I'm thinking that if I were back home (Europe), I'd have all those intact men to choose from. I'm pretty sure the temptation would get to me eventually, when I least expect it!
Here in USA even if I decided to cheat, or even if my boyfriend and I came to an agreement to have an open relationship, it wouldn't be easy to find an intact man, I think.

But I'm pretty sure you're wrong that you can't find a woman because all the good ones are taken.

My older sister got married but divorced when her husband wouldn't let her work outside the house. She is a wonderful woman, intelligent and very witty personality, always tries to make her life and others' more fun and happy. On top of all this, she also has beautiful looks. She might not be a woman fresh out of her teenage years, but doesn't mean she's worth any less.

Wouldn't you like a woman like her? She's available! Why wouldn't you want her, because she's been married before...?

There are a lot of women like her out there.

In the other thread, you refused to believe I would date an old, fat, ugly, poor man. I would, because I have, my friends and family stand as witnesses of that! :-)

Even if you chose not to restore you could still have a woman who loves you. You two might decide you're happy as is, or might decide to have an open relationship, or whatever, but it's not impossible to find a great person.

Sword,
Tell us, Ms Sunshine. What do you think? It's your opinion that counts the most. Can love be stronger than all of this?Take it as my opinion, not those of all women.
Actually all women seem to hate me, they seem to dislike my personality. Even one of my sisters isn't on speaking terms with me anymore. Whenever these women ask me to go shopping or drink at the pub, I politely say thanks but I don't like those things, perhaps she'd like to go play a sport or go to the book store with me sometime? Nope, they start yelling at me, crying, saying I'm a awful person, and they hope I burn in hell! Oooookay...! They're like ravenous beasts, I get out of the way before they start biting my arms!!!
I don't understand. I'd like to be friends but I just don't enjoy shopping or drinking or talking about TV, or dancing at the club, that's all! I do a bit of the things they like to do, but they won't do what I like to do, then if I want to take a break from the shopping/whatever activites, they call me awful names *sigh*

But anyway...

An abused woman often chooses to stay with her husband because of love. Is she doing the right thing? I know it's a really random example, but since you spoke of "love", there you go. I got the feeling that you're implying that if I left my boyfriend for an intact man, or if I asked for an open relationship, it would be because I don't love him. Oh, how wrong you are!

As for me I would like to stay with my boyfriend, and while I've never really cared for open relationships, I'm starting to consider it, and I hope he would too.

I've already had so much grief because of circumcision, I don't even want to know what I'll be like in 3 years, 5 years, 15 years, 20 years and 40 years later? How will I be happy missing that kind sex I had before?
My head feels like it's going to explode when I think how "dead" I will feel sexually, I can't imagine feeling even more dead and unsatisfied than I am now.
Some times we manage to have better sex, I even have a faint orgasm some times but the sex is still frustrating because he's doing "techniques" to please me instead of simply doing what his body tells him to do. It makes sex feel akward to me, compared to the naturally flowing sex I've had before.

As for him, oral sex feels good for him lately, after I learned why his penis looks different, I understood how to "translate" oral sex to make it enjoyable for him (it's very differnt than intact guys).
So it makes me happy I can do something that gives him great pleasure.

If I will stay with him?
My thoughts often stray, like...
"Problem will be finding intact men, there aren't even other (intact, I would assume) immigrants here besides me. There are international students in the universities around here, but I'm not silly enough to go meet students there just looking for an opportunity! :P Will I go on vacation back home once in a while and meet someone I can have fun with a few times per year?"
See how far my thoughts have strayed? All because of circumcision! I don't want to live with anyone else but him, I want to have children with him and he's the only man I've met who I'm very excited to have by my side for the rest of my life, but I need to have my needs met, don't I?

Only the future can tell what will happen, and yes, I've already told him what I'm telling you here, just not in such... blunt... words?

I wouldn't expect any of you men to live without having your sexual needs met, so don't expect me to live like that either. Whatever happens, I'll find a way to make sure I don't live without that sex I crave, and yes, I might sacrifice the relationship, I'm even considering going back home, intact men being one of the "pros" at the top of the list of reasons why,

He wants to restore but because he's pretty busy, he doesn't get to do it often, and I don't blame him for that, but the fact that I have needs is always there on my mind.

I want to ask for an open relationship, but hey, what's the point, not like I'd be able to find an intact man anyway, right? I'm not going to go around inspecting men :P

Sword, you can be compatible and have a strong bond in other ways, but I still think the lack of sexual bond can cause problems like it did for my relationship.

I don't think these chemicals are in sperm, WOF, even if a man pulls out at the last minute, or is using a condom, I still get that crazy, bonding feeling.

(Did I answer everything? ^^ As you can probably imagine, my mind is a mess!)

[photenman]

How about persuade your man to wear a device like TLC-X most of the time? It has options like strap or weights (very comfortable, wear with special jock strap). In one year sex will be better. Two years much better - gliding action. Three years would feel mostly intact to you.

[twalsh341]

WOF I think you're being too critical in your replies. "Poor fucking you", imagine something that has caused friction in a relationship you've had, one a fundamental as sex, imagine that being a real problem. Now contemplate putting up with it for 3, 5, 15, 20, or 40 years with a partner in denial?

And your last quote and response is harsh too, her statement hardly sounds like a woe is me, circumcision is the worst for me... I take it that she's just illustrating how in an otherwise happy relationship the thing causing wandering thoughts is lack of foreskin, which in US society, would be seen as really shallow and not important enough to cause those thoughts. I doubt she's trying to say she suffers more than the people who have been cut.

Sunshine is a victim too, she has an incomplete sex life through no fault of her own, nor her guy's. Try to get sensitive to that instead of lashing out at her.

[/sunrise/]

Pot calling the kettle back. Looks like we misunderstand each other as usual. Looks like I've misunderstood your words, and at the same time you still completely misunderstand mine, even when I've answered clearly on other threads :D Maybe you just don't want to believe me (just wondering).
Not sure what's going on here, maybe because we both don't have English as our first language?

"Poor fucking you"Me? Not me. I could escape and find an intact man. My boyfriend doesn't have the same "easy" choice available to him.

But you're missing the point entirely, while I could leave, I don't want to. You seem to think I can just break up and go on my merry way, but it's not that simple. I don't have a problem breaking up with people, I've done it before several times. This, however, is different.

You say while there are many women interested in you, you are not interested in any of them. It's very rare (impossible?) for you to find a woman you could be interested in. Did I understand this right?

Okay, now if you apply those same words to me. I couldn't care less about most men out there. They're not for me.
But now I have this man who I don't want to leave... not in a thousand years! Among the men out there, I found someone who I can't imagine my life without.

Maybe my feelings are silly, ridiculous, or immature, but they're my feelings, and they're valid as any one else's. It's who makes me who I am and regardless of who I am, I love myself now, in the past, and in the future. I certainly don't need you to tell me whether I'm a good person or a bad person. I'm just... me!

When I fell in love with him, when I realized I loved him to the point I want to spend my life with him, I didn't know he was circumcised even though I'd had sex with him plenty of times, I didn't even realize that his penis was "wrong", because I hadn't even considered that he COULD be circumcised. I thought only jews and muslims got circumcised, so I just assumed his penis was normal even if different from other men I'd been with. The thought never crossed my mind until I found out circumcision was routinely done in baby boys. I was reading about parenting, that's how I found out.

But hey, I can't just "un-like" him now!
And now I have to choose and whichever choice I follow, I lose. Either I lose the man I love, or I lose on sex for the rest of my life.

Can you see where I'm at? You're thinking it's very simple for me to just give him up now that I know he's circumcised, but it's not as simple as you make it to be.

You're saying there's like only 0.0000000000000001% of the women in this world you could possibly be interested in.
Okay, you find her. You want nothing else than to be happy with her until the end of time. Then you find out there's something about her, though many consider trivial, that is going to ruin part of your life, for the rest of your life.

Maybe for you it would be easy. Would you pick the woman? Would you pick sex? I don't know and I don't care. But for me it's not that easy.

You think "there's a problem in the relationship, and she'd rather cheat than leave him for an intact man". (Did I understand you correctly?)

If there's a problem in the relationship, it should be worked on and fixed if possible, not just ignored to find a easier relationship.

At least that's how I think.

And that's what I want to accomplish. Find a solution that solves this dilemma and makes everyone happy. However, WOF, I don't think that solution is leaving him, or having to life a sexless life.

I'm not sure what the solution will be, but we both decided a while ago to be honest which each other even if it hurts. And so I am. He said though it hurts to hear things sometimes, if we had both not been afraid to be honest with each other in the past, we wouldn't have gone through so much hurt. And I agree!

So what we come up with, we'll see.


Twalsh;
Yes, he's looking to restore, just very busy... and will always be busy until he's 100 years old, I bet! :D
Waiting on him to get all the measurements for the tugger because he wants me to do the mail order for him, but he's doing work out of town now so it will be a while. He's pretty scared about the tugger, though, and I don't blame him :o

And I still can't imagine why you all say I'm such a supportive girlfriend, I'm the one who brought up all this stuff to him :eek: Imagine how much happier would he be if he didn't have to worry about this...! I still shake my head in revulsion, thinking how I could tell him about this stuff. But what's done is done, and hopefully it will make each of our lives better, whatever may happen.

[swordofpeace]

I wanted to give you the nobel prize because when a man is thirsty any little bit of dirty water will satisfy him greatly. But now I see the other side of the story, your inner mind, and I take back the prize.

I think we can work on this, together. I hope you stay on this thread and keep talking. I don't judge from a moral point of view but I see you as very human now, with human weaknesses and temptation. This post may sound judgmental but it's not. It's just my opinion. I'd like your response.

You're giving up great sex being with him, sure, even though you can restore some of that! But if you love him you must yoke yourself to him, to his fate, otherwise you don't really love him. Like WOF is saying, but in my words, you have not made a real commitment to him. You cannot possibly have, or you wouldn't be thinking this. Remember those words "for better or worse"? I understand you're not married but still. I also understand sex is a natural need but we can put some of our selfish needs aside when reality or love demands it. I wonder by the way, what country are you from?


An abused woman often chooses to stay with her husband because of love. Is she doing the right thing? I know it's a really random example, but since you spoke of "love", there you go. I got the feeling that you're implying that if I left my boyfriend for an intact man, or if I asked for an open relationship, it would be because I don't love him. Oh, how wrong you are!

Ok here's the definition of love I am using. I think it's one of the best definitions out there: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast. It is not proud, it is not rude, IT IS NOT SELF-SEEKING, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrong. love does not delight in evil but rejoices in truth. IT ALWAYS PROTESTS, ALWAYS TRUSTS ALWAYS HOPES ALWAYS PERSEVERES. LOVE NEVER FAILS

So I wonder if you have love. I would also say love doesn't feel a sense of entitlement. If you love this guy you must rejoice and celebrate with him when it is celebration time. But if you truly love this guy- as I define love- then you are also bound to suffer with him, mourn with him, grieve with him and his loss is your loss. Otherwise I think you are a liar when it comes to love, or it is only a superficial love. Maybe you can describe for us your feelings of love, convince us we are wrong, describe what you do for him and how you feel about him.

I do agree with you that there has been loss. I do agree with you that sex is a human need, or at least a strong human desire. God created it and when they cut away foreskin they destroy the image of God and his great work.

You want to be loved by one guy and be sexually pleased with another. I have a question for you. How will you make love to another on the side and fail to bond with him and get feelings for him? You cannot serve two masters. You cannot sleep with two men or else you'll start to love the one and hate the other. How do you propose to deal with this? Do you deny it is true? What about when you start getting hormones from the other guy? You will be a hormone intermediary! You will start opening secret emotional channels, and when your sex partner gets moody or mad, it will affect you, and then that will affect your boyfriend, and he'll have no idea what's hitting him. I read about this phenomena in an interesting book by John Gray before he started to write about gender.

It is true- the LACK of a foreskin is a good filter against shallow and superficial women. Or if not shallow women, at least women who are unworthy of a man without the foreskin, at least women who are not deep enough and mature enough to be worthy of men who are accepting their situation and doing what they can about it.

I appreciate your response. I wonder what you'll say. I don't want to scare you away but I want to keep you engaged. I am like you and I respect you in the sense that you do what you want, in terms of how you spend your free-time with your girlfriends. I also like the things you like and hate what you hate, so I don't hate you for that but respect you for it. The problem becomes when you take this directness which I respect to an extreme, because I think on some level you are still childish.

Like WOF says you still have a choice. If you want to end it with this guy you can. If you could break all the emotional attachment bonds and find an intact man whom you also love as much, then presto, it is done. But seriously, would your heart or conscience be fine with this? Would it not hurt inside of you? Could you really enjoy paradise? I believe we are embodied spirits and are meant to enjoy the body, food and drink and sex, and yet I see you as carnal not spiritual. You are still thinking with the carnal mind. Can you not transmute your sex drive somewhat? Or is your bf really bad at oral sex that he can't find ways to please you other ways? Or maybe it's another issue. maybe he's a very nice guy but just low testosterone, so you lose attraction. Is it an issue not with sex but with attraction in general? Does he have nice-guy syndrome? That's different, then I understand, and that can also easily be fixed

I wonder if you come from a radical feminist country like America. I agree with WOF that if things start to change for men it will be largely because women are fed up with circumcised sex, because they have got the chance to compare by sleeping with foreign men, and not because its' a human rights issue. Check out girlwriteswhat's channel on youtube- feminism an the disposable male. Yes men are seen as disposable. Or that yes men have feelings and needs but that a woman's feelings and needs are inevitably more important. I don't say you don't care about your husband's feelings and needs, but I do say you probalby consider your own more important, or you wouldn't be thinking the thoughts you think. Seriously, a serious question- do you feel compassoin for him? Have you watched a video of circ being done on a baby, and make the connection that that has happened to him, and start to bleed with compassion? I think if you feel strong compassion it will prevent you from lusting after other men. That's what this is-feminine lust pure and simple, and it's what I meant about being carnal. I know it's sad you can't enjoy intact sex with the man you love, but join the club. All of us are sad. The whole world in my opinion should be plunged into grief and depression on this subject. Grief is good, healthy depression is enlightening. Humble yourself and you'll be lifted up. Pray for strength


I wouldn't expect any of you men to live without having your sexual needs met, so don't expect me to live like that either.

You say you get some minor orgasms, and in the opening post you mentioned what you could do to make it better. So my question is, were you in denial? On a scale of 1-10- sex with intact men and sex with your current lover? It's not as if you're not getting your needs met at all; only that you aren't getting the high level, right? And if he restores, can't things only keep getting better and better?

I think your emotional attachment to him is your curse for your selfish spirit, and your cross that you have to bear in this life. I'm not saying you're selfish or that it's wrong to want normal sex. It's actually crazy NOT to want it. But consider that you are not alone! Millions of American men are in the same boat as you! Focus on compassion first and foremost, and less on what you as a woman are being denied. Become with your energy an outspoken intactivist! Do some good in the world, try to leave the world a better place. Appreciate what you do have, show gratitude, and then maybe you'll receive glory in the next life, if there is a next life

Sorry for this rant. I can be hard sometimes but I really appreciate you engaging with WOF and myself. I have learned a lot. Your honest words are always appreciated, because they pierce my heart, and I'd rather have brutal honesty a million times over than little white lies that leave me no wiser at the end of the day.


One last note not related directly to circ but related a lot to modern female attitude. Again I wonder what country you are from, just curious.


An abused woman often chooses to stay with her husband because of love. Is she doing the right thing? I know it's a really random example, but since you spoke of "love", there you go.


I don't condone abuse of any kind. but one thing I notice more and more is that men are desperate in today's society and women are not as desperate. Now there will always be drive for attachment, and psychological dependency because that's just nature, the yin and yang, but I don't think people realize: In today's society, man's natural gender advantage is repressed (even by the state and by laws and welfare, etc) whereas woman's natural advantage is expressed and continues. This doesn't make for healthy courtship, or feminine appreciation, or feelings of worthiness as a man. I'm a traditionalist but that aside, the idea of 'fairness' still applies. Society doesn't play fair and it's because people have been duped and their goal out there is to destroy the institution of marriage and family, trust and the bonds between man and women. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but if I was, that would make perfect sense. And foreskin removal would seem to fit into this scheme so well. Women have so little need or cause to cling to the American man because the state provides women economic security and also he lacks foreskin. It's tragic. But to the extent they still do is a testimony to the spirit and to nature's truths, that we are not whole without each other, no matter how much we try deny it. And if men are suffering, women ought to suffer as well with them. Otherwise you can always go back to Europe and enjoy your paradise there. See if you really find happiness. Maybe you would for a time and then you'd lose that and realize you threw away the love you had and regret with tears and gnashing of teeth. sorry to be harsh, but that's why I called myself sword of peace. I decided not to speak straight as I see things. And I wonder if men who abuse women have been first emotionally and sexually abused by them. When a woman taunt a man and then denies him, that's probably sexual abuse. Why not just leave the man alone? Women can easily emotionally abuse men. Plus men suffered the original sexual abuse as babies, and men suffer much domestic violence as well. Your example implies that women are always the victims, but I'm sure you don't actually think that. I think only half the story gets told. We need all the help we can get reconciling men and women

I have hope in your case. I have faith that WOF and I can help you learn to appreciate and enjoy what you have now, or else help you to make a final decision, in which case you don't have to complain and you can be in paradise, though as a price for this you should become an outspoken intactivist like Aubrey Taylor imho

[photenman]

First I was thinking that we are rough on women in this forum and I don't like it. It's perfectly reasonable to prefer sex with an intact man, and to fantasize about it if you don't have it. It's difficult to prove but probably bad sex with circumcised men has led to a lot of failed relationships Don't we fantasize about being intact? So you get to feel what you want, and we should appreciate women telling us what they feel, not insult them.

Second, I was thinking about the implications of this thread. Simply stated, everything else being equal, sex for women is better with intact men. Now currently, most Americans are circumcised. But 55% are being circumcised, so call it 50-50 soon. Given a choice - and there are lots of choices - women will pick intact men. At least on the margin. She loves say two guys equally, one intact, one not. Sex will be better with the intact man, she will pick that man. Or sex is great with one man so she falls in love with him, and not so great with #2, so she does not fall in love with him. Or worse, stay in love.

So if circumcision has not ended by then (because of public outrage, young people can see on the Internet what they are missing, the law or whatever), it will end because circumcised guys will be left out in relationships and marriages. If they're angry now, they will be beyond angry then.

[swordofpeace]

In my most paranoid moments, I wouldn't put it past the elite to establish a system whereby all infants undergo mandatory circumcision, and then all guys have to work their way up the corporate ladder to finally be able to pay for foreskin regeneration.


In the world at large or just the US? I don't see the world at large going for it. Maybe the philipines, because they aren't very smart, but not a place like Germany

I'm not against a fair fight between feminist/statist forces, and the people, the family unit. What irks me is that they get the children. They never pick on someone their own size. Literally, doctor against baby, school system against boy. It is just a form of deep theft. I think all of us in our moments become extremely paranoid about an elitist society like of HG Wells.

[AnonL]

While I do think that w.o.f.'s comments are overly harsh, I also cringe at the rationalization of cheating and "open relationship" because of the physical shortcomings of a mutilated victim. It would be so painful to be on the receiving end of such a thing. I think I would feel degraded, humiliated and very resentful.

[AnonL]

On the other hand, if more women would be as honest as she is being, then I'm pretty sure it would deal a heavy blow to MGM. My instinct too is to say "stop torturing the guy and leave", but we don't know what their relationship is like, especially not having heard his side of the story. Sunrise isn't the enemy... rather it is women who are in denial and "love circed dicks" so they do it to their sons and encourage others to do the same.

[/sunrise/]

I don't understand how my thoughts of having sex with intact man are any different than when a man looks at a gorgeous woman on street or on porn. If he didn't act on it, then what's the problem? And if I don't act on it, then what's the problem. Sounds like a double standard to me.

So if my boyfriend watches other women (in porn) does this mean he does not love me and has not committed to me fully?

When I am old and wrinkly and have saggy breasts and stretch marks from child birth, should I restrict him from fantasizing about younger, more beautiful women? Of course not!

There's a big difference between wishing and acting on the wish.

Sword, for better or for worse... if you were only 25 years old and your love couldn't have sex anymore, you'd stay, for the rest of your life?
I'm sorry but I don't think putting basic needs aside is a healthy thing.

I'm sorry but I don't want to say where I am from, hope you
understand.

Ok here's the definition of love I am using. I think it's one of the best definitions out there: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast. It is not proud, it is not rude, IT IS NOT SELF-SEEKING, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrong. love does not delight in evil but rejoices in truth. IT ALWAYS PROTESTS, ALWAYS TRUSTS ALWAYS HOPES ALWAYS PERSEVERES. LOVE NEVER FAILSWhere am I failing? My boyfriend and I are both learning as we go, learning about life together, learning about sadness and happiness, about our needs, about our wishes... in other words... even if we do something we realize is not good, we will learn from it and become better from it. Of course, we are not perfect, no couple is. We're just learning along the way.

But if you truly love this guy- as I define love- then you are also bound to suffer with him, mourn with him, grieve with him and his loss is your lossYes, but (IMO) you can't just be negative, if you can improve things then why not do it?

You want to be loved by one guy and be sexually pleased with another. I have a question for you. How will you make love to another on the side and fail to bond with him and get feelings for him? You cannot serve two masters. You cannot sleep with two men or else you'll start to love the one and hate the other. How do you propose to deal with this? Do you deny it is true? What about when you start getting hormones from the other guy? You will be a hormone intermediary! You will start opening secret emotional channels, and when your sex partner gets moody or mad, it will affect you, and then that will affect your boyfriend, and he'll have no idea what's hitting him. I read about this phenomena in an interesting book by John Gray before he started to write about gender. If I did start loving two men, what's wrong with that? Also remember that if I did this, it would be with his permission only.

Or if not shallow women, at least women who are unworthy of a man without the foreskinIf that makes me unworthy, then I don't want to be worthy :D

But seriously, would your heart or conscience be fine with this? Would it not hurt inside of you?Not sure. If my boyfriend agreed with my wish, no, I don't think I would be upset. But ofcourse it is something we would find out along the way.

and yet I see you as carnal not spiritual. You are still thinking with the carnal mind. Can you not transmute your sex drive somewhat? Or is your bf really bad at oral sex that he can't find ways to please you other ways? I don't know if you are circumcised or intact, but this is a big red flag to me here. I can see why you don't understand me.
I don't know if I can explain this because it's something you have to feel for yourself to understand.
Sex to me is spiritual in the bond and feelings it creates. I don't do it because I want to satisfy carnal desires, I do it because I love the person and want to share this amazing feeling with him. Oral sex does not give this "amazing bonding feeling" I've gotten from intact sex.
This is not about feeling pleased. If I wanted just an orgasm I could masturbate. My sex drive is not over the top, it's actually quite reasonable. What I want is that "bonding feeling" that gets created. I don't know WHAT it is or WHY it happens, but it's truly amazing, at-least 10000 times more amazing than just an orgasm.
If I had this "bonding sex" even just once a month, I would be soooo happy!

Seriously, a serious question- do you feel compassoin for him? Have you watched a video of circ being done on a babyYes, I do. Why do you think I don't? Because I refuse to ignore MY needs? I wouldn't expect him to ignore his needs, why do I have to?
No, I've not watched a circumcision video all the way through, I had to stop it because it's just too cruel. I hope my boyfriend hasn't watched one either, though of course it's his choice. It's too cruel. Just thinking about it is bad enough.
Pray for strengthAre you religious? I'm not trying to attack you, just trying to understand why you feel the way you do. My self-created religion says you should try to be happy instead of throwing problems under the rug. As long as my boyfriend agrees to have an open relationship, do I need to feel bad because some random person in the internet doesn't like that?

I don't feel bad about having lust for an "imagined" man who doesn't even exist. My boyfriend definitely shouldn't feel bad about having lust for his dream woman either.


I wonder if you come from a radical feminist country like America. No, it's actually the complete opposite! :D
I'm from Europe (but please respect that I don't want to say what country). I grew up in a very rural, religious area, where I got beat up by my mother because I dared to be a smart person who wanted to learn mathematics, physics, foreign languages, even though I was just a young child. My brothers had a very leisurely life and the girls had to do everything for them.

The brothers were very lazy and didn't even finish school, however my parents would buy them everything and anything including expensive cars. We girls tried very much to get good grades, be responsible people, learn an important subject in university. Even though we were so good, our parents didn't pay for us to go to the university. My sister needed transportation for school and my parents wouldn't let her get a license because that would make her a whore. My parents also wouldn't let her work (!!) because that, surprise! would make her a whore! So how was she supposed to do university...

If I said "good morning" to a male on the streets, on my way to school (because, you know, that's what polite people do, they greet each other as you walk by), my mother would beat me up because to her that's the same as being a whore.

Definitely not a feminist or liberal place by any means.
So while I don't want to say where I'm from, there you go, that gives you an insight how I was raised.

You say you get some minor orgasms, and in the opening post you mentioned what you could do to make it better. If you read what I say, you will know this isn't simply about orgasming. I COULD masturbate to orgasm. I COULD just do oral sex. But neither of these give me that "out of this world" bonding feeling.

And if he restores, can't things only keep getting better and better? Yes, it would be nice, for both of us. If he restores, even if I were not with him anymore, I would be so happy because I know he will enjoy sex in the future so much more. I wonder if he will be able to get that "strange bonding feeling" too, then I would be even happier even if we were not together anymore, because I know in his future relationships he would enjoy himself so much more!

Like I said he has a busy life right now, restoring is at a half (understandably).

I think your emotional attachment to him is your curse for your selfish spirit, and your cross that you have to bear in this life. Uh?! :D :D :D What the heck? I DO know I can leave! I'm definitely not a saint by staying, if that's what you're getting at.

If I became incapacitated in a way that I couldn't give sex to him, I would tell him to get his needs met elsewhere. Because I don't want him to be lacking because of me!

Looks, your religious/moral beliefs are okay... for you! But I have different beliefs.
So it's like we are speaking different languages, even though both languages are okay! Does this make sense?

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, your morals and your morals, and it's your life.
But for my life, your morals don't apply. Your morals are not my morals.

[/sunrise/]

circumcised guys will be left out in relationships and marriagesDoubt it.
Earlier I said to read my feelings as MY feelings, not the feelings of all women.

"Normal" women will sacrifice sex for the person they love, because we are taught that "good women" will sacrifice anything, including their careers, their health, their time, their friends and family, their emotional well being, and so on, if they truly love someone.

Yes, even in USA.

[/sunrise/]

While I do think that w.o.f.'s comments are overly harsh, I also cringe at the rationalization of cheating and "open relationship" because of the physical shortcomings of a mutilated victim. It would be so painful to be on the receiving end of such a thing. I think I would feel degraded, humiliated and very resentful.I understand where you're coming from. Different morals, that's okay!

However not everyone lives their life by the same morals. For example many people think I will go to hell because I live with my boyfriend and have sex with him before marriage. However by my values this is completely fine with me. In fact having children together without getting married is completely fine with me too (I know, for bureaucracy reasons it might be necessary get married if we have children, since government wouldn't recognize us as actually being a family, and I'm okay with getting married for that reason.)

If these are the "guidelines" we both set together, then it's fine.

If something happened to me where I couldn't give sex to my boyfriend (just a silly example), I would tell him to go get his needs met elsewhere if he wants/needs to. Even if it were temporary.

Some people couldn't do this, and that's fine too. I'm not going to make them do something like that, it's their life.

[/sunrise/]

occasionally do the annoying chore of letting him fuck her.Eh, not really. We do it if we both feel like it. Lately it's rare, and we both know why. He's free to get sex elsewhere, even if he doesn't tell me about it (yes, I'm giving permission)

"stop torturing the guy and leave"We're both dealing with this, we are learning as we go. He knows how I feel, and I know what he feels. I have told him that I don't feel too good about sex right now.
I just feel awful *I* was the one who taught him about circumcision, when I said we would leave our children intact, he was dead set on circumcision and we had a long discussion, I had to say everything I knew because he still insisted we would circumcise our children because he believed it was better, no matter what I said about how all the reasons for circumcision are silly and potentially harmful. No matter what he kept saying we should still do it. I had to say the sex problems that come from circumcision because I wouldn't let him circumcise my children or another women's children. I HAD to change his mind somehow. Even if we broke up and he had children with another woman, and she wanted circumcision, he shouldn't allow it.
Finally he was shocked because he finally understood why sex has always felt so strange to him. Now he knows circumcision is not good and that we will not do it to our children.
Even if we both feel bad about this at-least I prevented more people from being hurt in the future, even if just one.


As much as I feel bad about the whole situation, our relationship got stronger from it. Imagine that.... I'm shocked too.

[/sunrise/]

But in posting here she's just preaching to the choir.
Umm, hello, I'm replying because people are asking me the questions!
If you don't want to read you don't have to.


Women like her should try and broach the subject with people IRLOh yes, I'd like to. But I'm hurting so many people's feelings here on this forum, and this is a forum against circumcision. Imagine how much more hurt IRL people would be.
I'm not sure how to go about it. I should do it in a gentle way, but how? I failed with my boyfriend, when trying to make him not circumcise his children. I tried to go the lowest-pain way, but it didn't work.

How should I do it without hurting people, when people are 100% in the belief that circumcision is a good thing? If you can tell me I will try. I thought of starting up a ... club? Group? Where there is discussion about circumcision, but let each person just say what they think without trying to convince them either way.
Does that sound good?

I think there's also one parent's group around here, but as I don't have children and I'm not pregnant I would feel silly to go there. Should I anyway? (Yes, I have interest in various parenting topics)

in order to reach a new audience who may never have considered circumcision's impact on their lovelifeI don't know... I would be scared to go about it that way, I don't want to hurt so many people; myself and my boyfriend is too many hurt people already.
There's gotta be a gentler way. I do have some (male) friends who are open minded and we can talk about anything, but with other men and women out there it wouldn't go over nicely.

Also, this might actually be a worthwhile idea for e.g. Bonobo3D's channel. It would be great to have couples openly talking about their perceptions and experiences regarding circumcision and sexual frustration etc.Probably with a curtain hiding our faces :p

I still believe that she is not thinking things throughHmm...

, especially not who she's talking to here. Her writing frustrates and actually offends me to no end, and the "(positive story)" in the thread title is just a slap in the face.I know what you mean... I'm ashamed of how this thread turned out. At first I was so happy we could (and still can) do something to achieve orgasm and make sex actual "love making" not just "sex making". I'm still very happy we can do this even if it's not 100% perfect.

What she's writing, from my victim's perspective, sounds an awful lot like "well, you circumcised half-men, don't be surprised when your woman gets frustrated with you for no other reason than that and cheats on you". >_> No...
*sigh* I know everything I say always comes out the wrong way, I hate it. That's why I have no girl friends... :D


I mean, what is she saying here? That her guy isn't tolerating any considerable flaws in her? She doesn't seem to be aware of any considerable flaws in herself. Does she consider herself the big prize, at least for her current partner?Whoa! Hardly!
I am myself, just myself.
Like everyone else, like you, like him, I have good traits and bad traits. Regardless, I am me. I can try to get rid of the bad traits and try to improve my good traits. (Hope this makes sense)

He knows my faults and he knows my virtues. With that in mind, if he likes me and wants me, that's great! If not... then I completely understand.

It just so happens that he likes me. Yippie!!

[arsenic]

Sunrise. I LIKE you.
My GF talks about all the celebrities out there cheating etc... I tell her that anyone who 'takes up' with these 'celebrities' should NOT be surprised by this behavior. By explanation I speak of fantasies. We ALL have them, (Do we not?) The nature of a celebrities life puts them in contact with many people who are happy to fulfill the celebrities fantasies. I further explain that once you fulfill a fantasy, you develop newer, bigger fantasies. One does not dream of driving a Ford Escort, when one has driven a Lamborghini.
Perhaps another way to present this. I once met a woman. Very attractive. There was never a hint of romance between us, but while it was a nice thought on my part I knew that nothing would ever come of it. As I have mentioned in my post on this website, I have 2 ex's. One of MY failings in both of these marriages was infidelity. Anyway, besides the fact that she would have trouble believing she could trust me, she had lost her husband to cancer. (5 years ago). Almost in passing, she mentioned that he was the love of her life, and that he could never be replaced. She had already had the best. Realistically, How could I EVER (or anyone else for that matter) be a suitable mate for her. She will always know what she is missing.
The way I see it? You also, are very much aware of what you are missing. You find yourself in a bit of a conundrum. Three actually. You love this man, yet because of your history with intact men, you are aware that your physical expression of this love is limited. AND, You have a possible solution in hand (pun intended), but the solution is not well received. AND, You know what is missing but he doesn't have a clue.
I, personally find your fortitude and attitude VERY refreshing, and am saddened by the reception you have received by some quarters, in this forum.
As my sister, who on facebook, is trying to revive the expression would say. "Keep on Truckin"

[AnonL]

It's certainly interesting to hear your perspective sunrise and I appreciate the honesty. I think aside from moral differences, there is also difference in the psychological makeup of men and women. It seems to me that for most men, being unable to please a woman sexually is extremely damaging to their idea of feeling like a worthy man, and having their partner cheat sexually is the worst sort of betrayal. Maybe I am projecting and generalizing, but it seems to be the case with many if not most men. Based on the things you say, I'm not sure if you understand or agree with that. But anyway I can appreciate that the situation you are in is very difficult and that all the choices must look equally unpleasant.

As for being afraid of hurting people by speaking up about MGM, I know what you mean because that's the reason why I can't speak of it to my parents. But if we are talking about sparing expecting parents possible hurt or discomfort, it seems a trifle compared to the lifelong pain and discomfort the baby WILL feel if they mutilate him. Not to mention the pain of his future partners (like yourself) and possibly his sons if he continues the barbarous tradition. I think we hurt more people by remaining silent than we do by showing the truth to someone whose beliefs are actively harmful.

[swordofpeace]

Sunrise, I have so much respect for you!!!!!

I didn't understand you fully, plus I was in somewhat of a bad mood, which I'll be in again. Furthermore, much of what I said I don't take back. But some of what I said I definitely take back because I didn't have understanding.

I really like how we can all help each other, and learn with each other. I think you're doing most things right by being here, by trying to work through it, by trying to learn. I want a woman like you actually, although not one who cheats or wants an open relationship, but I would understand it perhaps. I only hope that restoration minimizes the difference between intact and restored. I'm still looking for female comparisons between circ'ed, natural and restored. So far they only have 2 of the 3. Even if they just had natural and restored that would help.

I want to burn the various things you wrote into my memory and never forget them. I think you should always speak the truth and never fear of causing people pain. It's the truth that causes pain, not you. If you speak judgmentally or contemptuously, then you'll cause pain, but I'm sure you're not that kind of person. The truth hurts but only the truth can set us free. If they're not ready to hear it, they'll just avoid you, but you have an obligation I think to 'hurt people' in this way. I say it's like circumcising their hearts. It's like inducing deep grief- but it can kick people out of this perpetual gray zone they find themselves in.

I wonder if I failed to bond better with my ex gf because I didn't have foreskin. I am interested in what you say about female bonding through sex. That's an area of research I'm interested in for it's own sake. I hope we can talk about this. What questions can I ask you? You describe it as spiritual! Why don't men feel this way? Did intact men feel this way first of all? I know in America it's notorious that women bond during sex and it's emotional, but for men it's only carnal. Is this true of the European men?

I wonder if we can restore this capacity. I really hope so. I wonder if it has to do with glans and inner foreskin being covered and mucusy. I've head that when the two (the vagina and the penis) are in this state and they touch, it's like a neural connection. I know the nerves are closer to the surface, and maybe electrolytes play a role? Also there are certainly hormones and pheremones and other fluids. I wonder if these were all lost in the ridged band or some are got back. I saw a pic of an intact man, erect and fully rolled back. His inner skin took up about 100 percent of the shaft, several CMs. Mine, I only have the scar, a few CMs and that is hardened. I know things can only get better but that is depressing.

Yes I'm very much interested in this bonding issue- both ways, as wof was interested in the male bonding.

I don't know if you are circumcised or intact, but this is a big red flag to me here. I can see why you don't understand me.
I don't know if I can explain this because it's something you have to feel for yourself to understand.
Sex to me is spiritual in the bond and feelings it creates. I don't do it because I want to satisfy carnal desires, I do it because I love the person and want to share this amazing feeling with him. Oral sex does not give this "amazing bonding feeling" I've gotten from intact sex.
This is not about feeling pleased. If I wanted just an orgasm I could masturbate. My sex drive is not over the top, it's actually quite reasonable. What I want is that "bonding feeling" that gets created. I don't know WHAT it is or WHY it happens, but it's truly amazing, at-least 10000 times more amazing than just an orgasm.
If I had this "bonding sex" even just once a month, I would be soooo happy!


This is what hurts me the most, but a healthy kind of pain. This is why I want to pretend that sex is carnal love and not spiritual because it's too big of a loss to cope with. So I can't give her that spiritual feeling, or receive it myself! Oh god thank you God for this in my life

So you don't feel at all that orgasm alone helps you in bonding or oral sex at all? Why is that do you think? Do you think it is the part of your body that orgasms, or do you think it is the process of it all, or the intimacy? Women are funny, they describe sex with foreskin as 'yummy' sometimes. what would without be,'yucky'
I gave my gf great oral sex. Also I gave her sperm inside of her (she can't have children anymore) and I think these things both may have given her bonding chemicals and she bonded. Maybe she would have bonded more otherwise, but I think if anything the resentment flowed the other way in our relationship, and created a little sexual ambivalence in me, mental confusion in both of us, and also sometimes penis soreness and vaginal bleeding.

I think another aspect for male bonding may be just having an orgasm. I always feel a little bonded after an orgasm, and yet I don't think I've ever had a real orgasm before, but only ejaculations. So if I get better orgasms, even without the chemicals, I'm sure the bonding will increase on my side. No wonder i think of sex as carnal. though I never watched any, I am 'used to' american porn mentality. Everything americans have to say about sex is biased. We can't believe any of it. At least we have to be suspcious of all of it. We should read translations from German and French if we want to learn about sex as nature intended it.

I am interested in learning about this bonding in women- how it is activated and what it feels like, and also in men, whether it exists in the same measure in men. I'm sure it does. Just instinctively I feel that's so. Now I know why my parents were stale in their loving and void of affection, though they are both faithful and loyal.

What more do I want to say?

I respect and admire you Sunrise. I had misinterpreted you and projected in my worst fears. Since this happened to me as a baby, who couldn't distinguish, I sort of blame women (mother) for it, and then I feel that they (woman) first rejected my foreskin. Also I believe this when women say it's what they "prefer" (as if they have a right) or it's cleaner etc. And then I believe that they (women) reject me because I don't have a foreskin now. it's almost like lose-lose

My mother really messed up my life. I blame her the most because isn't it a mother's duty to protect? Also she's the most resistant, but I keep pounding away at her. I don't leave my parents in peace. I'm like the author of "you call this love" in that regard, at least until they circumcise their hearts.

So sleeping with another guy is just a fantasy you say, and not something you're actually doing. That's good, that's different I didn't know that. And yet even if he says yes, does he really mean yes? you said that you bond through sex and it's more than just physical so how are you not going to bond when you have sex with just a hunk from Italy? You might not love him but you'll get all those emotional bonding issues and then bring this drama and complication to your husband. I'm sure of it. But feel free to fantasize, as long as you don't take them seriously.

I really think your husband needs to restore. Then you can post to us the difference and maybe start a blog. I don't buy his excuse of not having enough time to restore. It can be done while doing other things. But I understand he lacks "time" to figure things out and get started on the right path, and to do the grieving. that's where you can help, and I can maybe help you. I believe I know how I can get a woman to be able to influence men to get what they want. You kind of just follow the model of Esther in the bible. You silently petition, all the while treating him with respect and honor but without moving your stance and without opening your mouth but letting your thoughts primarily speak for you. He'll know what's on your mind and if he doesn't, he'll want to, but you have to have patience, but also firmness but also submissiveness. Submissive authority let's call it

I hope you can fine peace. me too. I wish my gf would react as you. I hope you can have this great boding sex at least once a month! I think now moreso than ever that it's every man's DUTY to his wife or GF to restore for her. It's not an option but an obligation and if they don't, they are failing in some ways as a husband


Yes, it would be nice, for both of us. If he restores, even if I were not with him anymore, I would be so happy because I know he will enjoy sex in the future so much more. I wonder if he will be able to get that "strange bonding feeling" too, then I would be even happier even if we were not together anymore, because I know in his future relationships he would enjoy himself so much more!

I know you don't like it but I must praise you for saying this. You are not just thinking of yourself.

All the doctors who did this should be lined up and shot


Sword, for better or for worse... if you were only 25 years old and your love couldn't have sex anymore, you'd stay, for the rest of your life?
I'm sorry but I don't think putting basic needs aside is a healthy thing.

I understand, and this makes me cry inside. At least we can do something about it, but it requires men to man up. I pity the women whose lovers refuse to restore. they should be beaten.


Sword, for better or for worse... if you were only 25 years old and your love couldn't have sex anymore, you'd stay, for the rest of your life?
I'm sorry but I don't think putting basic needs aside is a healthy thing.

Yeah that's tough isn't it. He needs to restore, and then you can decide what to do from a place of higher understanding. The first thing definitely that you should do as a couple is restore. What good is only talking about it. Without pressuring him or doing it the wrong way which alienates him, as most women do when they try to change a man, you need to get him to restore, in my opinion. See what I said above. Accept him lovingly but don't accept any of his lame excuses. But accept the person


I don't understand how my thoughts of having sex with intact man are any different than when a man looks at a gorgeous woman on street or on porn. If he didn't act on it, then what's the problem? And if I don't act on it, then what's the problem. Sounds like a double standard to me.

So if my boyfriend watches other women (in porn) does this mean he does not love me and has not committed to me fully?

When I am old and wrinkly and have saggy breasts and stretch marks from child birth, should I restrict him from fantasizing about younger, more beautiful women? Of course not!


Here this is just my morals but I don't think people should watch porn or lust at other women. It is possible to watch porn just to learn things as a guy or to study, .001% of the time, but the rest of the time they are lusting emotionally. That said, I would like to watch a video of intact sex just to learn. But just my morals, I believe we are to be faithful to someone emotionally otherwise we don't belong in a relationship with them. We should at least try. And yet if you showed me someone who was 100 percent successful at this, I'd show you a liar, or a very lucky couple who has worked hard and probably benefits from him being intact and both are healthy and in shape. I don't think you ever need to have saggy breasts from childbirth. I know a lot of sexy hot mammas. BTW I think admiration and attraction is different than lusting

You're right, there's no difference between what he does and you do, but I say both are wrong, hurtful, toxic, but those are just my morals and I don't want to impose them on you.

I'm addicted to this thread. It's exactly what I need, and I hope I help you. I want less anxiety and tension in my body, less soreness in sex for each of us. I want increased pleasure in lovemaking. But by far, beyond all of this, most of all, I want both of us to have that spiritual experience of bonding during sex, like never before. The devil took this from us and it is so tragic. I want this and I hope I find it and I hope you find it. It is what's causing our depression and suffering. I hope your sex life improves from here on out

ps I have been interested in bonding during sex. I should read those books I heard about before like "The Invisible Bond" and "Hooked". Although they come from a moral perspective they certainly talk about the bonding aspect that makes sex what it is

pps "Normal" women will sacrifice sex for the person they love, because we are taught that "good women" will sacrifice anything, including their careers, their health, their time, their friends and family, their emotional well being, and so on, if they truly love someone.

In my opinion (and it's just that) this has more to do with nature and less with culture, or at least involves both, and also the same applies to men sacrificing.



As much as I feel bad about the whole situation, our relationship got stronger from it. Imagine that.... I'm shocked too.

This is really really good news. It was my theory from a while ago, after watching an Aubrey youtube video, that if bonding can't occur through natural foreskin based mechanisms, that it can happen through shared grief, and it's good to have confirmation. :) I think that has to be our way. If woman isn't willing to deal with it like perhaps mine, then the man restores, and maybe she'll come around when she sees the benefit. If both grieve they bond, and then get benefit of restoration over time. If the woman wants to grieve and for him to restore, and he's in total denial, then she is in a tough place and the man isn't living up to his duty but she must persevere (in the right way, by being a loyal helpmate). Grief is the new way, or part of it. any future relationship I'll give this talk beforehand, as I read about someone else doing

How should I do it without hurting people, when people are 100% in the belief that circumcision is a good thing? If you can tell me I will try.

You can't spare people pain. You should ram them. As long as they are in denial, they will cause other people pain. Many men here would appreciate your courage of speaking up, and you have my full support and even desire that you don't spare people, but confront them, albeit in the most appropriate way according to context

You'll get everything from this forum. Remember also that people are in different stages and in different moods. The people in farther stages of grief and restoration should not criticize or judge those in earlier stages and sometimes it's good to get the hard feelings out even if they sound critical of a woman. In our culture, America, I think you agree everyone wants to spare the woman's feelings. But myself, I see sunrise as a human, struggling on the path but I have a lot of respect for you and wish other women and men would start walking the path. I believe we all are the change agents in society, Most people don't do a thing to change, even when the world could be made a much better place. We experience a lot of resistance. Sunrise I want to neither demonize you nor idealize you and you have maybe seen me do both, but I think you have really good qualities which I respect and admire. I wish you well and keep posting here!

[supercandy]

Sunrise , after reading your story especially the details. It makes me recall a old friend of mine when I was 14 years old. Evey time I play some game physically(a little like wrestling)
with him.It would make me angry which I cant speak out.Just do not like I play it with others. Even I make some friendly movement , he would think it as hurt, I guess. He always banging me down and down as if it an make hime feel better.Recenly I asked him whether he circumcised, he told me yes. And I told him the way restoring.Hope it can give him some help.

[photenman]

I love how honest and open you are about sex, caring with your man and men in this forum, and smart to figure all this stuff out.

I have a big friendly crush on you. :-)

[cutitout27]

hi there. nice love story! remember, he was mutilated while too young to defend himself most likely, so he does not know the difference.

whats left of his penis is totally numb. if you compare his glans to previous lovers you will notice that his has a faded look. this is extra skin used to protect his glans from chaffing. the missing foreskin, which is never extra skin but everyone is born with it, even you, would normally protect his glans but that is long gone.

about the question of enjoyment for him... circed men need more rough sex to be able to feel much of anything. natural sex is not going to do much for them.

negative stuff aside, restoring will fix all of this. meanwhile get him to cover his glans as much as possible if he is lucky enough to have some foreskin left.



How do you know his penis is totally numb? How do you know he needs rough sex to get off? Or that natural sex is not going to do much for him. When have you had circumcised intercourse?

[maxadam]

Any man who is circumcised were child. No man would want that happen to them. Parents are responsible for this i agree. But the man's partner plays a very important role. A women who could understand the situation of a man would live life happily with him. Mutual understanding is very important in such cases.

[violated]

if i was 25, and the woman i was with could no longer have sex, i would still stay with her forever. also if she got sick, cancer, handicapped, whatever. it bothers me TERRIBLY when i here women talk about sex not being as good with circd! at least you have been able to experience intact sex! at least you are still intact! we lost 75-90% of our erogenous sensation when we were babies! weve never even been able to experience it just once! i think its shamefully selfish for any intact person to be upset about not being completely satisfied with a circd person! i also understand that someone needs to learn about these things before they can gain understanding about it, but until a person gains a certain lever of spiritual maturity, and love maturity, they should just stick with other intact people.

[/sunrise/]

Hi, good morning. I haven't been here for quite some time since I've been busy.

@violated
It's good that you'd stay with her if that's what you wish to do. I hope you wouldn't do it out of guilt but out of genuine desire.
Would you stay with her when you know there is a cure to the sickness/cancer/handicap but she refuses to believe she's sick, covers her ears, and shouts "La la la, I can't hear you, I can't hear you!". Wouldn't you be resentful that given that there is a cure and she'd be back to normal, she choses to burden you both and be unhappy?

"You can stop chemotherapy and be back to a normal, healthy you". "You can walk and run again". "You could have the most amazing sex that will blow your mind and feel things you never knew before".
Wow, wouldn't you do it? Why would you choose to stay with the cancer or the handicap? That's crazy.

You're right, I've had experience with intact sex and those are sacred memories to me. I hope never to forget them because it's all I have. Life shouldn't be like this though. Eating only stale bread for the rest of your life while you reminiscence about a delicious hamburger? Every-time you have the stale bread you feel somber and tense because you want the hamburger. Then your heart feels heavy and painful because you know all you'll ever get is week-old stale and moldy bread.

It's pitiful that a person can do just one thing to improve their life, and they chose not to do it and bring unhappiness and tension to both.

You also forget these issues almost destroyed me, causing severe anxiety, depression, suicidal tendencies, body image issues, self respect issues, lack of confidence, trust issues, severe anxiety and panic attacks, feelings of rejection, terrible paranoia, having to put up with awful pain and bleeding every time we have sex... I'd massage my lower belly to make sure my uterus was still in the right place after being banged so hard. I've explained all these things before, if you'd taken the time to read them.
You make it seem like this doesn't affect me and I only like to complain about something of very little importance. I'm not saying he's not hurt either. We both are. But I refuse to put up with these issues, as they're not good to my health. To say I'm just whining and spoiled is pretty ignorant of you.

Before dating and having sex with him, I never had these problems, I was a mentally strong and confident woman. I'm back to normal again once I realized the problem was circumcision, and not me.

Therefore, so I can have a long and happy life, I refuse to subject myself to sex that's not good for my physical and mental health. I refuse to be in pain or feel like there's peeling scab inside my vagina (peeling scab! peeling scab! don't you know how painful peeling scab is, specially in such a sensitive area?) I refuse to let him bang away when I know it's not natural, when it doesn't make me feel attached to him, when it makes me feel like a sexual abuse victim, when it makes me feel like a sex toy rather than a human-being worthy of love, when it feels as exciting as folding laundry, only more scary. Would you want to feel like this?!

Though I regret he's never been able to experience intact sex, it's not my fault and I shouldn't feel guilty because of that.

I'm not going to starve myself because of guilt over a child in Africa not being able to eat. That's what you're asking me to do. Do you not realize how silly this sounds to anyone with an ounce of logic in their brain? How is starving myself going to help that hungry child? How is making myself suffer going to make my boyfriend have better sex? That's just... there's no logic to it.

I very much disagree with you that it's selfish to feel unsatisfied with circumcised sex. If you're hungry, you're hungry, that's all there is to it, it's not shameful to be hungry. It's completely natural to want to eat if you're hungry, because that's what your body is telling you to do after all, isn't it?

Yet what he's doing is that the piece of food is right in front of him (restoring) but he's choosing to stay hungry. It's his choice. But whatever happens I'm talking about my feelings. There's nothing wrong with talking about your feelings. There is no wrong or right feelings, feelings are just... well, feelings! It looks like it's you who has to mature a bit and understand this.

You're acting like I'm blaming him for getting circumcised as a child. I'm not. I'm only frustrated and at the same time very amused that the carrot is right in front of him but he chooses to stay hungry.

And we try to improve our sex even without restoring, but it's like pouring milk over the week-old stale and moldy bread. It makes it edible and you manage to gulp it down, but you still want that bacon cheeseburger you have fond memories of. :o

My GF talks about all the celebrities out there cheating etc... I tell her that anyone who 'takes up' with these 'celebrities' should NOT be surprised by this behavior. By explanation I speak of fantasies. We ALL have themThis is not a fantasy, this is a basic need like water and food.

How do you know his penis is totally numb? How do you know he needs rough sex to get off? Or that natural sex is not going to do much for him. When have you had circumcised intercourse?
Oh believe me, all of his assumptions are correct. Really numb and needs really rough sex to be able to feel anything at all. Even rougher to be able to have a weak orgasm. It's been this way since we started dating.

I'm very, very scared to think how it will be when he gets older. He barely has any sensitivity and he's not even 30 yet. I'm really scared. Does he want to wait until he's 70 to start restoring? Ouch. I already feel like a celibate nun, how much more can I abstain from sex? I'm 25! No children yet! Isn't it a bit too early to retire from sex?

Anyway, back on topic, he can put up with "pretend natural sex" since that's the only way I consent to sex (like I said, I refuse to hurt myself). It doesn't give either of us orgasms and isn't really that enjoyable as our bodies aren't in tune with each other.

The reason I say "pretend natural sex" is because since he can't feel anything without really rough sex, his penis isn't doing the thinking, his brain is. This is wrong. He consciously puts effort into doing things right, instead of letting his penis react accordingly... because it can't.
Because of this we're always out of sync, he can't get my vagina to start throbbing, there's no throbbing to cause his penis to swell, and no swelling means my throbbing won't get stronger, so we have no orgasm.

After all these years, he still has no clue about what an orgasm is. He asks if I orgasmed because he felt wetness. Because that's what he sees in porn, he thinks that's an orgasm, when it's really not. If it was an orgasm, he would feel it too and the feeling would be so overwhelming he would orgasm too and pass out on top of me, while still being inside of me with the throbbing slowing down. He doesn't believe me when I tell him this, though, he's never experienced anything like that...

[/sunrise/]

In a private message, I've been asked if I think a restored foreskin would be able to give me the same pleasure as an intact one.

I'm copy-pasting my response here in case this is helpful and motivating to those restoring, or considering it.


Hi, sorry, I haven't been on the forums much.

I don't know, I've never had sex with someone who restored. But after learning and remembering how the foreskin works during sex, it seems the restored foreskin is able to function the same way. Maybe not as tightly because of the missing ridged band, but enough to make sex much more pleasant.

Though my boyfriend doesn't have much foreskin remaining from his circumcision, some days we're lucky and manage to make the skin partly cover his glans, and with more luck we manage to get his penis inside of me that way too.
So we get some gliding action, that is, instead of his penis going up and down my vagina, it goes up and down inside of his own skin, and the overall sex experience is much more pleasant. We both orgasm. Pretty quickly too. Generally neither of us orgasms, so I'd say that's a huge improvement!
Too bad we can only get the skin to do that very, very rarely. Only remember two times this year.

But anyway, given this experience, yes, I think the restored foreskin would help a lot! I'm salivating, thinking, if even with the little foreskin he has remaining we can feel like this, imagine if he restored more of his foreskin? Wooow :eek:

[violated]

i didnt mean to come across like a dick. i didint mean to offend you, and im sorry if i did. i didnt mean that just for you, some women are terrible about it. youre actually pretty nice about it compared to some women. its the truth that really hurts, its so unfair! youre just one of the only few women willing to come talk to us about it. you are in a hard place, i understand that it must be very difficult. but leaving would be the wrong answer. not that youre going to, but thoughts lead to words, and words lead to actions. where do you draw the line? if my gf was "considering" leaving, it would hurt just the same. we are "all" selfish, but its something we have to overcome. all kids are selfish, but they grow out of it. some sooner, some later, some never. were all somewhere along the way. i didnt mean youre a bad person, but thinking/talking about/considering open relationships, cheating, even leaving is very selfish. its not for "his" benefit, youre only thinking of yourself. regardless of what he may say, NO man is willing to share, or lose the woman he loves. if he goes along with any of that, its out of sheer desperation. love means you dont leave someone. until a person has that level of spiritual maturity, they shouldnt be in a serious relationship. what if you left him for an intact guy, fell deeply in love, then the guy had an accident where his penis was damaged? would you just leave again? or what if it was cancer, or handicapped? would you leave then? thats not what you do. you "can" do that, and people do all the time, but that doesnt make it ok. so thats the answer to what you "should" do (not that you asked me-lol). i quit watching porn, i dont check out other women, and i only fantasize about my girlfriend. it wasnt always that way, it took years and a lot of effort. you need to try to the best of your ability to stop comparing him to intact, and push those thoughts of afairs and open relationships and leaving out of your head when they come. it will get easier over time. he doesnt deserve you thinking about that stuff. if you cant/wont do that, than you should leave and find an intact guy. thats already what you are doing in your mind, and thats where your heart is. not with your man.

[violated]

i hear ya when you say its frustrating that hes not restoring. thats got to be driving you crazy. the answer is; he needs to start restoring. no arguments there. try to be patient, he probably will come around. i wasnt planning on restoring when i first learned about circ. one reason was because i didnt think it would help all that much. that phase lasted a little while until i learned more about it. another reason was because i was just so depressed. kinda like when you dont feel like eating when youre sad? and i struggled really bad with killing myself for a few months, a big part of it was reading womens comments about it. the thing that finally got me to start was getting on here and talking about it with guys that had already started. i still struggle with suicide, and in a way restoring makes it worse because it constantly reminds you about it. some days i get exited about restoring, other days i realize sex will never be the way its supposed to be, and ill never get to experience the way an orgasm is supposed to feel and lose motivation to restore, or ever try to date again, and get suicidal. you just have no idea how much this affects a man. ive thought about suicide everyday since i started learning the truth. the most common thing soldiers that are maimed in iraq say when they get blown up is "is my penis ok?" when the see that they are missing legs, arms, etc, they are relieved to find out that their penis is unharmed. and theyre happy! but when they find out thier penis is wounded theyre devastated. - so anyway, he probably will come around to restoring, but theres probably a lot more going on in his head than hes letting on, or even realizes. he needs to get talking to some guys that have already started or better yet, already finished. theyll start talking him into it. in the mean time, you need to be patient. and do some work on you.

[/sunrise/]

What makes you think I don't understand feeling desperate and suicidal? I've been there myself. I'm a human-being too you know? I'm not a precious doll who has only known happiness in life. You're delusional if you think I don't understand you.

And you're wrong, if I had such a health problem that meant I couldn't satisfy his basic sexual needs, I would work something out. I'd tell him that if he needs to, to get his needs filled elsewhere but 1) just don't tell me about it so I'm not jealous 2) don't use the other woman/women exclusively to the point I'm ignored (I should still be the main source of physical affection as his partner) 3) be careful and use protection for both our sakes. That's it. You think it would be easy on me? You think I wouldn't be scared? You think being a woman rather than a man makes sharing him less painful?! It doesn't. But it would be worth it, because taking care of his needs is important for his health.

But, let me tell you, if he's the kind of person who can't do this in return for me, that's OK, if he's not comfortable with it then I wouldn't make him. But I would wonder about the reason he'd refuse. If it's selfishness or immaturity, I don't want to be with someone like that.

I've never been a very sexually open person in relationships, sharing, polyamorous relationships, really, anything other than strict monogamy has always creeped me out because I thought those people didn't love each other if they did that. Many people laughed at me because I had such old-fashioned and "prude" feelings. (I didn't mind, it's all good fun and part of life)

But, I grew up and learned that things aren't always black and white. Now I realize that maybe the whole reason they do that is because they truly love each other, more so than a monogamous couple who would rather make each other suffer rather than deal with uncomfortable feelings and grow together.

It's saddening you sometimes want to stop restoring, I hope you can keep going because every improvement, no matter how little, is a big accomplishment. Would be great if you keep a journal writing down any improvements you notice. It must be better than before you started restoring, hmm?

You're wrong, I understand how this affects a man. What I have issues with is when a man refuses to believe it affects a woman too. Look, I'm not the average woman, since I was a baby all my friends were males. Every best friend I've had (male), it's always been as our brains/souls are linked, as if every little issue we have is shared. Others would describe it like being twins, I guess :D I hate men who think I'm "just a woman" and there's no way I could understand. In fact it's women I have trouble understanding, not men.


What do you mean, I do some work on me instead? I've been doing that all along. I've been doing that for the whole time we've been together. I'm not a person who gives up. If there's a way to improve something, you can bet your ass I do it and give it my 120%.
It sounds like you're the kind of person who would tell a dying cancer patient that he should pray to Jesus and everything will be okay. No, bloody hell it won't. Praying to Jesus or talking about his feelings won't heal the cancer.

I disagree that I need to be patient, I've been plenty patient in this relationship, and not just about restoring. There's only so much patience you can have before it starts affecting and ruining your whole life. If it's something that can't be helped and there's no cure, I would be by his side forever. But when it's just due to lack of trying, there's no way I can ever forgive that person for doing this to us.

Like I've explained before, if I were with someone who had an accident, I would stay with them despite drawbacks, but (very important), but, if there's a cure and they refuse it, then I take it that person doesn't love himself or me, and I would probably leave. If it were me in that situation, being the one sick and too lazy to cure myself, I hope my partner would have the common sense to leave my sorry ass instead of letting himself be dragged to hell with me. I hope he would slap me and give me a wake up call.

You aren't reading anything I say. I've said several times that I don't have an issue being with someone who's sick or paralyzed or whatever, it's only when that person refuses to help themselves that I'm disgusted. I have a friend who the doctors said he wouldn't ever be able to walk again, he'd have to use a wheelchair forever. He had already been on bed rest at the hospital for a whole year, so imagine how demoralized he must have been. But, but!, he said "Fat chance! That won't happen to me, I'll try anything!" The next year, he was already walking and running. I have lots of respect for that person. Even if he tried and tried but wasn't able to walk again, I would still respect him very, very much, because he didn't just pout, moan, and give up.

But when my own partner is just pouting and not trying to help himself, it's difficult to regard that partner with respect.

[AnonL]

You repeatedly liken circumcision to an accident or sickness and restoration as a cure. Circumcision is an intentional, premeditated assault on your body, not some accident that happens to you. I would catch hell if I likened getting raped to having an accident or getting sick.

It is not so black and white as fighting against misfortune brought upon you by fate. First you have to wrap your mind around the fact that it was your parents that gave up your body to a butcher, and that nobody said anything about this to you your whole life.

Imagine if it was doctors who had broken the legs of your friend who couldn't walk, and everybody was telling him there's nothing wrong with what happened and that his legs are better broken, except his girlfriend who is miserable and wants to leave him because he hasn't fixed his broken legs yet. Maybe he would still find the strength to walk again, but he would hate everyone.

[violated]

sunrise - k, i can agree with most of that. my point was that it was very hard to get motivated to restore at first. and after reading a bunch of others posts, i guess a few months really wasnt that long compared to many guys. part of the motivation killer for me was (still is sometimes) the fact that it will never really be the way its supposed to be. but i had to (still have to) overcome that, and just focus on improving it as much as i can. so i get what youre saying about not taking the medicine, that must be very frustrating! but like i said, theres probably a lot more going on in his head than hes letting on, or probably even realizes. i totally agree that he should be restoring, but it can be very hard to identify how youre really feeling inside sometimes. i had to come on here and find guys that could relate to how i was feeling before i was able to get motivated to start restoring. i think a big part of it was getting help identifying how i was really feeling. you may never be able to "talk him into it", he needs to get talking to people that can help him identify how he may be feeling inside, and tell him how great the results of restoring are from personal experience. i say be patient, or "continue" to be patient because he may be having a harder time with this than you realize, than he may realize. - i know what you mean about ambition. thats how i usually am. whenever something holds me back in some way, or someone says i cant do something, im all over it. ive always been like that. like the person you mentioned. my grandpa had a stroke, they said hed never get out of bed again, and hed be lucky if he lived 1 year. he walked out of the hospital that day, went back to work doing concrete, and lived another 30 years. i have the same personality, but this is much different. this was a devastating blow like nothing ive ever experienced, and ive been through some rough things, believe me. im "usually" the guy saying "come on man, itl be ok". - try to get him on here, thats what helps a lot of guys get motivated to start restoring.

[violated]

i also want to say that i dont mean to take anything away from you. you "havent" actually left him. that speaks much louder than words, and thats very commendable. you are right when you say thinking something and doing it are two different things. try not to think about it so much like whether or not he restores. think of it like whether or not you are willing to be with someone thats not intact. because whether or not he ever restores, he will never be intact, it will never be like you remember it. i am dying to here someone thats been with intact and restored, that can compare the two. i guess that will be a hard thing to come by. but it wont ever be the same. - also, thanx for talking to us, women members are rare and valued here!

[seattledon]

/sunrise/,
Thank you for all of your sharing and your thoughts.
I for one really appreciate your honesty and understanding.

[/sunrise/]

(re-reading this again (my boyfriend is reading it), I see the "tone of voice" sounds a lot more mean and angry than I intended. It's just the heat of the discussion, I'm not actually angry or acting mean, it's just a heated topic)
You repeatedly liken circumcision to an accident or sickness and restoration as a cure.No, I don't, Violated is the one who talked about cancer, handicap, and even talked about a wounded warrior asking if his penis was okay, I didn't. I believe circumcision is more like rape or abuse. And restoration is definitely not a cure, but only something they can do to improve their life, and hopefully move on from the painful past.

It is not so black and white as fighting against misfortune brought upon you by fate. First you have to wrap your mind around the fact that it was your parents that gave up your body to a butcher, and that nobody said anything about this to you your whole life.I was abused physically (by parents) and sexually (by siblings), you think I don't understand? This isn't about proving who's right or wrong, this isn't about proving "I'm in more pain so I win, you lose!"
What's important is that we're both in pain, it's not a contest on who's in more pain.
Atleast in your case your parents circumcised because they cared about you and wanted you to be healthy (the belief that being intact is unhealthy). In my case I was abused so I could be hurt.
So think more carefully next time before you say I don't understand therefore I have no idea what I'm talking about. I know it's difficult. I'm not saying that he can't take his time until he accepts. He already understands and accepts what happened. He's just choosing not to do anything about it.

We have sex and I stop it because it's painful or annoying. He says, "so that's it? we're going to be like this, we're just not going to have sex ever again?", as it's my fault, as if I'm a bad girlfriend for not allowing to make me have pain during sex, as if I don't want sex and I'm depriving him on purpose. I want sex. I really want sex. I want sex in the morning before work and I want sex when I go to bed. But it's not up to me. I'm not going to deal with the pain and all those issues I spoke of before. You read about those issues, right?
If he wants sex, he knows what he can do.
So don't blame me, it's not my fault. I tried, for years, and years, I thought sex must be like that because he loves another woman, not me. Maybe if he truly loved me, sex would be gentle and we would orgasm like it happened with other boyfriends. Maybe if I was skinnier and more beautiful, he would have better sex with me (nevermind the fact that I'm a gorgeous woman just as I was with my other boyfriends!). Wow, all this stuff because of circumcision. It's crazy!
You've read how I was, didn't you? He knows how I was. I got really sick because of sex. I was so sick that I didn't live the past few years of my life.
You really want me to be like that again? Does he? That's insane!
So if he wants sex, don't look at me like it's my fault, he knows what he can do. I'm avoiding what's not good for my health (sex as it is now), just like I avoid gluten.

Imagine if it was doctors who had broken the legs of your friend who couldn't walk, and everybody was telling him there's nothing wrong with what happened and that his legs are better broken, except his girlfriend who is miserable and wants to leave him because he hasn't fixed his broken legs yet. Maybe he would still find the strength to walk again, but he would hate everyone. Yes, I was told that all the time, every child is hit to the point of bruises and blood when they do something wrong, right? It's just discipline, right? Every child is hit if they accidentally spill milk and the glass breaks, right? And really, I'm the one comparing circumcision to broken legs? You're completely missing the point, I gave that example because Violated was telling me it's wrong to leave someone with broken legs and I was trying to explain that I wouldn't do that. I tried to explain that it's not the fact he has broken legs, but whether or not he would try to help himself.

My boyfriend's not stupid, he already knows the sham circumcision is. I've been there too, being in the stage of denial (about other issues), I know he's past that phase already.

You know, I'm reading these posts with my boyfriend and we're chatting. He said: "Sunrise, doctors can heal a broken arm, replace a useless liver, but it's impossible to help a person understand something they don't want to. You can fix a broken arm or bad liver, but you can't fix ignorance when the person refuses to try and understand." (He's talking about people on this forum)

I've read your previous posts on this thread and it seems no matter how much I explain, you still misunderstand what I'm saying. Really sounds like my boyfriend's right :) Can't fix it if the person refuses to try and understand

you may never be able to "talk him into it", he needs to get talking to people that can help him identify how he may be feeling inside, and tell him how great the results of restoring are from personal experience. i say be patient, or "continue" to be patient because he may be having a harder time with this than you realize, than he may realizeYeah I don't want to talk him into it. Forcing someone never works unless it's something they truly want to do themselves.

The thing is he's not seeking help. He's very independent. He thought receiving help from people makes you weak. He's improving though. It's making a huge difference on his wellbeing that he's starting to accept people are there for each other and that doesn't make you weak. For example, if his family tried to help with something he saw that as condescending and hated them, now he realized they do that because they love him. I'm really happy for him, because he won't be so stressed all the time now. I don't think he's ready to take help from strangers, though.

I'm not writing here on the Women's section of this forum to convince him to restore, I'm here on the Women's forum because I'm a woman and I need a safe place to talk about my feelings. Just like the Grief forum or the Religious section, those people need those safe havens so they have an outlet. Why is it different for me? I hope the Women's section of this forum can be a safe haven for women to have a place to talk before their head explodes, but people are just telling me I'm bad and trying to put me down.
Hello? Helllooooo? I've never cheated and doubt I ever will. People make it seem like I'm a slut going around fucking every man. I'm only sharing my feelings because it's overwhelming holding it all in. Repressing my feelings would probably make it worse and then I might cheat. That would be really sad. By talking about how I feel and I have some relief and am less likely to do something I would regret.
That is what this forum is for. I'm not going to go to the Grief and Religion forum and tell those people they are bad and they are wrong for having certain feelings. If a person thinks "God chose circumcision for me, it's really painful but I'll accept His choice" I'm not going to say "you're bad, you're wrong!" because I don't believe in God or that we have to live by His choices. It's up to that person.
Feelings are just feelings until you act on them. And even if you act on them I wouldn't say it makes you a bad person, I would say it only makes you a person who's suffering and in pain, that you acted in despair.
I hope people grow up, but I can't make them, they have to want to grow up.

try not to think about it so much like whether or not he restores. think of it like whether or not you are willing to be with someone thats not intact. because whether or not he ever restores, he will never be intactI'm more than willing to be with someone who is not intact, if he restores. Whether the improvement from restoring is only 1% or an amazing 120%, all I want is that the man realizes the importance of improving ourselves. That's all. If you don't restore, you're letting circumcision harm us both, and I'd be scared that you abdicate responsibility in other matters like finances, children, and so on.
"Oh we'll never be millionaires, so who cares about saving money for retirement, I'll just go into credit card debt". "Oh, our child will always misbehave, so who cares about helping him have better manners, let him be a little demon". "Oh, I'll never be able to experience intact sex, so who cares, my wife can put up with pain during sex"
No, I will never date another circumcised man unless he's going to restore. No matter how much I love this man.

[violated]

you do make good points. like you, i dont mean to come across the wrong way. you should be able to express your feelings. we just dont all agree on everything, everyone just wants to express their feelings. i do appreciate you coming on here. there are other threads where a womans opinions would be appreciated, this is just a topic that feels very threatening to many of us. we eagerly look for little glimmers of hope in our situation. its encouraging to hear that you would date someone if they were willing to restore. - what would you say if he did decide to restore, a few years go by, hes finished, but you still have most or all the same problems? - has he read other posts, or just this conversation?

[violated]

i think part of the problem youre running into when trying to vent your feelings, is that even though this is the wives/partners section, there are hardly any, if any wives/partners on this site. they just pop up here and there once in a while. your trying to vent negative feelings about circ to mostly a bunch of circd guys. youre bound to get into arguments here. im sure you could have much better conversations with other like minded women (not really sure where you can find them, but im sure theyre talking somewhere). i really didnt mean to offend you, it can be hard to choose your words carefully when youre hurting. ya know? especially when you already feeling like nobody will ever want to be with you, then you find a woman saying some of the things youve said. nothing like having your worst fears confirmed, and then some. you give me glimpses into my ex girlfriends heads. ive seen the evidences in my past relationships of exactly what you talk about, but with no explanation until i learned about all this recently. so i dont mean to lash out at you. you are a strong and understanding person. i see mostly arguments with you and guys on here. hopefully this will help you understand why that is a little better. maybe you can find some like minded women to talk to. but i hope you will still post here. and check out some other threads, other topics will probably go more smoothly. (and if you do find other women to talk to, try and find someone thats been with intact and restored that can compare!)

[/sunrise/]

I wouldn't say I'm venting my feelings, is it venting your feelings when you go to a football forum to chat about football, or talking about motorcycles in a motorcycle forum? This forum just happens to be about circumcision so of-course I'm talking about circumcision :D

No, I'm not going to seek another woman to speak with because I don't have female friends ever since I was little. I already said this in this thread almost 5 times, women don't get along with me :rolleyes:
Females are scared because they see I'm a woman so they speak with me like they talk with other women, and expect me to act like other women. So they're confused and offended when I act like a man because they don't understand and don't know to react. This was true when I was a baby, a child, teenager, up until now. My friends have always been males because I always leaned towards being friends with them and they leaned towards being friends with me. Females are like a global sisterhood of which I've never been part of, nor attracted to. I was always one of the boys, always one of the guys. (A man in a woman's body, I guess. But hey, don't get me wrong, I love having a woman's body, because I can have children :))
But that doesn't mean women can't speak with me, they can if they want to.

nothing like having your worst fears confirmed, and then some.You see what you want to see. No offense, but when a person is scared they seem to only see doom and gloom (been there myself). I don't think things are as bad as you make it to be. All you can do is try your best, but it seems you want to give up because it's too cumbersome and you're scared it won't work, so why bother trying in the first place? Yeah, you're right, it won't work... if you don't try and give it your best shot! So try. Try again. Try some more. Consider every little thing that's improved (count your blessings) and keep trying to improve the things that didn't.
In the end, that's all you can do, but it would be sad to choose not to improve yourself, I think. Go for the gold medal!

what would you say if he did decide to restore, a few years go by, hes finished, but you still have most or all the same problems?Restoring isn't something you do "in a few years", depending on the severity of circumcision and the age he starts restoring, it seems it can take the rest of his life.
If he gives up out of laziness then I would leave him. But if he keeps trying, and things never change, I would stay with him. I think we would need to make alternate arrangements for sex (though he would still be my primary source of sex as my husband, and would still make efforts to make sex enjoyable)

- has he read other posts, or just this conversation? He's not read other posts that I'm aware of, he's not the kind of guy to read forums or research webites.
But he knows about everything I write here, because we talk about it. (That's what you were getting at when you asked, right?)

You ask good questions.

[cutitout27]

Intact

about the question of enjoyment for him... circed men need more rough sex to be able to feel much of anything. natural sex is not going to do much for them.

Cutitout27

How do you know his penis is totally numb? How do you know he needs rough sex to get off? Or that natural sex is not going to do much for him. When have you had circumcised intercourse?

//Sunrise//

Oh believe me, all of his assumptions are correct. Really numb and needs really rough sex to be able to feel anything at all. Even rougher to be able to have a weak orgasm. It's been this way since we started dating.

Cutitout27

Here is the point I am making and this may seem like denial on my part but I have a point. I have been fighting R.I.C. for a little over a decade and the argument I have the hardest part making is that cut guys can't get off as much as they should be able to. I talk to guys who swear up and down they have epic full body orgasms despite being cut as infants, and who am I to assume they aren't telling me the truth ? I have interviewed scores of sexually active adults of varied genital states and found some very conflicting perspectives. The brain is the most important organ when it comes to pleasure. Sure I have read much of the available data regarding what is lost to circumcision. But why do so many women (who have orgasmic capabilities beyond even the most intact males wildest fantasies) report not being able to cum? How is it that some paraplegics who have no feelings below the waist find ways to have profound orgasms? How is it that so many Muslim women who have had clitoridectomies report being able to orgasm? We may assume they are lying, but what if they aren't? I assume I would have a better sex life if I were intact for a number of reasons. The operation performed on me did pretty much what it was supposed to do, dulled my sensation. Although the original intent to eliminate masturbation has been proven ineffective. But that doesn't mean every cut guys best orgasm is going to fall short of every intact guys worst. I rarely get off from rough sex.
I once slept with a woman who told me that not only does she prefer sleeping with intact men, but she was unable to orgasm unless she was being aggressively plowed into. There is no evidence so far that proves human beings have a one size fits all experiences when it comes to sexual activity. And perpetuating this notion may prove detrimental to the cause of intactivism in the long haul.

[violated]

sunrise, i ask about what hes read because ive never been a forum guy either. infact, ive never been a computer guy at all. ive always played with hammers and wrenches. not long ago, my bro showed me how to use u tube. thats when i learned the truth about circ. thats when i started looking up things all over the internet, and eventually found my way here. the point is, i dont like going to people either. i hold things in. i did try talking to my gf at the time, but she didnt give two craps about it. she didnt believe me that it made any difference, and she got annoyed when i wanted to talk about it. so i just stopped bringing it up. when i first came here, i just read other's posts for a while. then i finally felt like talking. i still dont think i wouldve found the motivation to restore if i hadnt gotten on this forum, or at least followed it.

[violated]

when i said find other like minded women to talk to, i wasnt saying go hang out with them and go shopping. i say that because i just cant see most of the guys here, or any guys really being able to understand where youre coming from. i tried talking to a few people about circ, but all i found was arguments, misunderstanding, and indifference. especially among women. i just got more and more frustrated until i finally found people that understood, and could relate.

[violated]

when i say "worst fears confirmed", i dont mean reality, im just expressing the kind of feelings that arise from reading some of the things youve said (not just you). i could never put into words how deeply some of those things cut. like when you say he doesnt know the difference in a real orgasm... ive had sex a couple thousand times (serious relationships only), and i have an above average size penis, but ive never had a girl have an orgasm during sex. and ive never had a girl have an orgasm like you describe any other way either. i cant even begin to tell you how much that breaks my heart. im not expecting that to change when i finish restoring either because it still doesnt work the same. theres still no frenulum and ridged band. it still wont feel right or move properly. my ejaculations have never been anything great. they only last about 5 seconds, i think a foot rub feels better, and its a serious workout just to get to it. its so unfair, i never asked for this. sexual issues exactly like those described by you, and other women about circ, have destroyed every relationship ive ever had. this is such a terrible thing. im not a cryer, im the guy on the jobsite that shoots through his hand with a nail gun, wraps it with duct tape, then drinks to it at the bar after work. last year, the girl i was with 4 years, we had recently had our first child, cheated on me and left me for the guy. that hurt. but i dealt with it. i went to work, put my life back together, and got a new gf. but when i read womens comments about circd/intact sex, i cry. nothing has ever hurt so bad in my life.

[arsenic]

Sunrise, I know you have a different perspective and a different set of expectations, because of your history with intact men. I have read this entire post, though it has been over the several months this has been active. I simply do not remember if you have stated whether or not you have been medically examined. This thought has been nagging at me for some time, while I understand missing and noticing what is missing, with adequate lubrication, (commercial or self produced) intercourse should not result in bleeding and the excruciating pain you speak of. Millions upon millions of women have intercourse with cut men without having these problems- Unless they have some sort of medical issue themselves. If you haven't already, please have a medical examination. Including for STD's.

[violated]

ive had several girlfriends that had severe pain and bleeding during/after sex, with medically confirmed clean bill of health before and after. obgyn said sex was too rough. it didnt seem that rough to them, or me. now i know that its my numb, mutilated penis thats too rough. i was still dating my last girlfriend when i learned about intact sex. i tried going very gentle, and mimicking intact movements. she didnt care for it, and i quickly lost my erection. she still had pain/no orgasm.

[/sunrise/]

I do NOT have problems, not physical ones, and no STDs. It's not me, I never had problems with any (intact) men before. Even my first times having sex were very easy. And now that I'm educating him on "how to have sex" I don't have pain anymore. So if the problem were me, I'd have had problems with all men, and I'd be having problems now.

(And btw, most women just endure pain and discomfort because "everyone knows" that women are "supposed to" feel pain and discomfort. Which I never understood until I was seeking help after dating my current boyfriend)

Yes, I do have exams each year (the past 2 years I only do basic STD testing though, since we've been monogamous for almost 7 years).
Lubrication has never been a problem. I'm young, healthy, and fertile. I have lots of creamy and/or egg-white vaginal fluid.

Pain is not a problem now that I force him to be gentle and he uses coconut oil on himself twice per day and also before intercourse to make sure his skin isn't like sandpaper. His penis skin isn't dry and calloused anymore because of this. Speaking of being gentle, if he speeds up, I make him slow down again. I know he needs to be rough to orgasm so in a way you can say having sex is pointless (:() but I will not allow it because I refuse to suffer anymore.

I understand that you'd feel better putting the blame elsewhere besides the circumcised penis, but believe me, I tried for many years to believe the problem was me, despite never having had those problems with intact men. Because I didn't know of circumcision I put the blame on me and attempted many fixes (exams, tricks, therapy, and shit I shouldn't have had to do, more than you could imagine, I'm not going to go there because I don't want to think about it ever again, let alone say it, it was too painful, don't ask, I'm just burying it forever because those things shouldn't happen to anyone!)

He was very dry that I doubt he would be in pain if I rubbed sandpaper on his penis really really vigorously. I think he would only get a tickling sensation. This is NOT normal. He also touches my clitoris with the intensity he thinks is normal (because it's what he knows HE needs therefore believes I need the same pressure and rhythm), and doesn't believe me when I say that just a little itty-bitty super gentle touch feels the best for me (which is normal). Because he needed to be rough to feel anything, he believed he had to be rough with me. (OUCH OUCH OUCH). If he were normal, a gentle touch would be enough for him. But he needs so much pressure as if he were choking a person to death. Huge turn off, I tell ya.

Plus his very long strokes (goes too far out during strokes, as in, so far out only his glans was inside) and the "mushroom sides" always removed all my lubrication even if inside of me it was a swimming pool when we started.
Our bed became really wet because all the lubrication would come out. With other boyfriends, the bed was dry, my lubrication stayed inside of me.

You also forget that without a foreskin, HE doesn't have lubrication. An intact man has his own lubrication, even if not as plentiful as women's.

No matter how much lubrication I had, his dry and calloused skin always caused "scab" feeling in me. It literally felt like he was a stick of sandpaper or cheese grater. It also felt like my vagina got split in half vertically. I would bend over in pain for 2-3 days due to really sudden sharp pains.

This never happened with any man, in fact, I never had pain or discomfort with any man even during my first times (and no, it wasn't because I masturbated lots, I masturbated rarely-- no privacy with a big family -- and it was always very gentle and only on the outside clitoris area with the pads of 2-3 fingers)

Also imagine the turn off when we finally stop intercourse (since we know it won't lead to orgasm anyway), and go on to finishing using masturbation. He needs to jack off with a rhythm faster than the speed of light (:P) and I need tender/sensual touch and sensations to orgasm. So we each have to look the other way and pretend the other person isn't there, because it just a completely different experience for each of us. I have to tune out the sound of his crazy jacking off by singing loudly in my head or pretending I'm hearing a man masturbating in a more sensual way, it's just too distracting. And we can't do it for each other, because the needs are different and frankly, just plain disturbing for me to do it the way he needs it.

Anyway, now we do positions where my legs are closed and I remind him to do very short strokes. I remind him not to pull out too far (only comes out about an inch). So long as we do this religiously, the lubrication stays inside (for the most part, because he still pulls out too far if he gets carried away). Now his penis stays moist and smooth, and so do I. No orgasms though (only when we manage to get him inside of me with some of the remaining foreskin covering his glans; it's difficult to accomplish so it only happened two times this year)
We're very limited in positions now, but you do what you've gotta do... Keep trying.


Him mimicking slow movements doesn't make it as if it were intact sex, it's pretty awkward and frustrating since he's consciously doing things instead of his penis being able to tell what he's supposed to do.
Examples:
- he's always paying attention to how he's supposed to thrust instead of letting the penis guide his body;
- penis doesn't send message to brain to pick up or slow down pace/pressure depending on what signs my vagina is sending to his penis; this makes throbbing go back to step zero instead of progressing to climax;
- his focus on performing means he can't caress or kiss me naturally like an intact man would, when he does it's the wrong timing and it's because he remembers to, and has to consciously do it;
- all these things contribute to the feeling that he's having sex with my body (as if my vagina were a sex toy) rather than having sex with me (he doesn't even understand the difference when I explain that). I never felt with other men that they were having sex with my body rather than with me, it always felt like it was two people being intimate, not one person using her body for pleasure (N.B.! : I'm not saying he's using my body as an object, I'm just saying it feels like it during sex and it's a huge turn off. I have no doubt he loves me, it's not that.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sex with intact men was like this: we are so in tune with each other and know exactly what to do at each moment. We aren't using our minds, we aren't thinking, in fact it's almost as if our brains stopped functioning and our body took over. When to kiss, where, how to hold each other, when and how to move, where and how to caress, when to pick up pace or intensity, when to slow it... Our body did all this by itself, it felt like the brain was unplugged :-)
Sex with intact men was like it was all about us two together,. Even though there was a penis inside of me, it felt like it was secondary, like the penis wasn't even a factor, like, "oh, you mean a penis has something to do with sex? I never noticed, haha!". And that wasn't just me, it truly felt like he too forgot there was a penis involved, even though, sure enough, the penis was there doing its thing.
It's very difficult to explain. I would say it's like two souls or two nervous systems got connected and they know exactly what to do because they can read/interpret each other in a split nano-second. It really felt like the brain stopped working and something is possessing your body and controlling it. Haha... weird way to explain it.

[violated]

if hes going through all that trouble already, he should just start restoring. its not like its all "that" hard. all i do is stretch my penis skin and wrap tape around it to hold it like that. then i go about my day, it takes me about 10 minutes, and thats if you include rubbing aloe vera on it and waitng for it to dry first. i can pee just fine (its actually easier to aim, it comes out in a tighter beam), i barely notice it all day, and you cant see anything through my clothes. (and masturbating feels REALLY REALLY good after i take the tape off, kind of like when you wear a hat all day then rub your head). i wish he would so you could tell us the difference. i do understand why you make him have sex like that, but you should make sure to give him hand jobs/oral sometimes too. otherwise his feelings will be hurt. i know mine would be. i know you dont "like" to do that, but i can tell you from experience, he HATES having sex like that. it very very unsatisfying and frustrating. if hes willing to do that all the time, he must really love you. you should compromise, and make sure to do things to make him feel good too. on the inside and the outside.

[/sunrise/]

Oh man, it's no surprise he hates it, I know that kind of sex is not what his body expects.

He's actually starting to tape when he remembers. Tried before but I don't think he cared too much back then.

He does get oral. But now that you've told me masturbating is really good after removing the tape, I might have to reward him with oral when he removes it... Now I have motivation to go to bed earlier :)

Sucks that he's the one who has to do all the work, wish I could help more. (Then again I've done plenty over the years, hmph! Ok, ok, now's not the time to be resentful)

His job has lots of movement (physical labor) and the tape comes off, so he re-applies it at work. (Kudos!)

*shivers* must be weird having the tape when it's so icy/cold outside when he's working.

[/sunrise/]

His skin before was like the sole of your feet (very dry and rough), but with the coconut oil it's been getting more and more like the inside of your cheek.

[arsenic]

I was not trying to put the BLAME on you. I was trying to cover the base.
I went for 37 years without underwear. I understand the necessity for vigorous strokes. In retrospect, i wonder if my second Ex felt pain and never said it. I would stop and add lubrication when I felt it was too dry. She never said she was in pain (never any bleeding) but if she was and did not express that, then it only shows me that divorcing her WAS the best thing, (there were other tell-tale markers in our relationship). I would have been VERY angry if she allowed me to do that without saying anything. Over the years I have seen and heard references about dryness and chaffing, but the response I always saw was that they were NOT normal and that it should be checked out. I would never expect my woman to put up with it and live with it. I am in a relationship with a wonderful woman who HAS had some difficulty with my restoration project. She had trouble understanding that it was my problem and not anything to do with how I felt with her. As I progress, she is beginning to notice and appreciate the differences. I have grown about 1/4 inch in length and the little skin that pulls up over the corona makes me feel thicker to her. She is enjoying that. She worries that I only come about 25% of the time. I tell her that women have been having sex for eons without having orgasms, yet still they enjoy the hell out of being there. She realizes that being an older man, that I cannot expect to cum more than once a weekend. We make love, rest, make love, rest, several times during the weekends we have together. 8 to 10 times (30 to 40 minutes a round) in a weekend. I tell her that it is like being with a young stud, but not having to do all the clean up. I enter her and then put her legs between mine. This forces short strokes (otherwise I fall out) this also puts our pubic bones in close proximity. I live in a camper, so the walls are thin, but the neighbors KNOW how much she enjoys this. I do NOT cum more than once a weekend, but I sure do enjoy being there. There is much more to making love than me having an orgasm. When my body is ready for it, it happens. When inside of her, my focus is usually on stimulating her clitorus. While I do not have the anatomy to provide me with feedback through my penis, she gives me the feedback, through her reactions, to how I am moving.
She just sent me a text, telling me that in 31 hours she will have me inside her. She sends me texts with her daily panty report. In spite of my anatomical shortcomings, I think we can still derive much satisfaction in our sex life. Having said that I AM looking forward to more progress and the resulting benefits that will come with my restoration.

[violated]

sunrise - great! congrats! what got him to start? (probably hates the way you make him have sex -lol) hes probably not doing what im talking about, hes probably taping the skin over the head right? thats cool, thats how most guys start out + manual. what i do is stretch the penis skin by puling on the head, then wrap tape around the shaft while im holding it stretched out like that. i wrap the tape from just below the head to just above the hair line. i wrap it around a few times to hold it nice and firm, so it doesnt start to wrinkle up. i do that every morning, and leave it on at least 12 hours. i use paper tape from the bandage section at walmart. i take it off in the shower. its not that hard to remove, but the water still makes it easier. then i "do the deed", then rub aloe vera on it again before i go to bed.

[arsenic]

I have been meaning to talk of this in the "retaining" forum, but I will mention it here. The guy who sell his balloon restoration device on ebay has a silicone cone that is thin and is meant to be a cushion between the plastic cone and the skin that you pull up over the plastic. This cone is very stretchy and soft, yet doesn't slide very well on your skin. I use that as my retaining device. I bunch my skin over my glans, place the cone over that, then kind of push the cone down over my glans. This usually leaves the skinny end about 3/4" below my corona. I then stretch and pull the cone down my shaft. ( the cone stretches very well for this purpose and is not painful at all.) Then I use my pinky, hold the cone in one hand and push my glans back through the skinny end of the cone. This is the most confortable retainer I have used. It RARELY falls off, and only takes seconds to put back on. I discovered this after only 6 weeks of restoring. I did not have much skin at all and yet it has worked well for me. Ron Low's skin cone is too stiff for me and always falls off. This one ends up with a little stretch over my glans and since it is farther down my shaft, my glans has the tendency to push against the two layers of skin between it and my glans, kind of locking it in place.
I retain through the night with this too. I am now at the point that my night time erections do not pull it back down my shaft. When I first started using it, it would pull down my shaft and just sit there. When I woke up in the morning there was no evidence of any kind of choking or loss of circulation. My glans never swelled, turned purple, got cold etc.

Perhaps he could try this.

[cutitout27]

This relationship sounds unhealthy. I've had nothing but uncircumcised partners during my twenty years of sexual activity but I never fell in love with their genitals. If I happen to fall in love with a woman who has been circumcised (a remote possibility I'm sure) I would figure out how to pleasure her with what she has left. The way you describe your sex life with your partner sounds callous to me. I've dated a few women who were raped but couldn't imagine bitching in a forum about how I couldn't use whatever sex practice I wanted to use because of something she had no control over. Saying something like "I could tie up my last two girlfriends and they went crazy for it but this current girl with her raped vagina can't appreciate kinky sex with me". Your complaining about something that this guy had no control over, something that while medically and socially normal is clearly an institutionalized sexual assault. You speak of his genitals as if they were a bad tattoo that your ashamed to have showing when you leave the house. I don't know much he understands about what happened to him on a clinical level, but getting that revelation and being reminded by your lover that you are inferior to her previous partners seems like a fast track to profound sexual dysfunction for both of you.

[Comicking45]

OK, as of yesterday I am a happier woman (yes, with my circumcised man)

Scroll down to the orange stars if you don't want to read the whole story :-)

I'd had sex with intact men before, and none of us had trouble enjoying ourselves, and of-course, orgasming.

I did not need to learn any tricks. Since the first time I had sex, it all made sense. The penis does all the work for you, there's no need for tricks, and I had never known a lot of women need tricks to orgasm.

Sex with them felt like two cats snuggling and purring next to each other, a very relaxing experience, even when we both orgasm (me first, him right after), and collapse next to each other, more relaxed than any spa could make you feel. Seriously, just reading about it makes me horny.

When I am with intact men, I feel like I am the most important person in the world to him. I feel like a precious jewel.
This happened regardless if I was with a man who I deeply loved, or with a guy I barely know whom I have no feelings for.

This happens regardless if I am suffering from depression, or not. (People usually say if you can't orgasm, it's because you're depressed. Also, note it's been a long time since I've suffered from depression)

With my current boyfriend (a wonderful man), I couldn't understand.
Sex felt very... anxious, violent... I felt angry, but couldn't exactly say why. I felt more like a circus performer than this man's love.

It's very fast-paced, he can't connect with me because he's concentrating so much on banging me fast enough to make him orgasm. He has to concentrate so much
And when I'm trying to caress him, kiss him, I get jostled and he gets distracted, he has to start his rhythm/banging all over. So I have to stop and just lay there quietly. He has asked me why I don't caress him or kiss him more, but I didn't have the courage to tell him :( I'm sure he is already aware how much he has to concentrate...

It's possible for us to orgasm (extremely rare), he must go slow like an intact man would, and stay very close to me. It's enjoyable, and sometimes I have a faint orgasm, but it's a different kind of orgasm (anxious, tense, vs relaxing, loving feeling). Because he can't feel like an intact man would, he's just guessing how to thrust. It's not the same.

Even when I "orgasm", it doesn't cause him to, like it did with intact partners. I guess because it's not the same kind of orgasm, there's no strong throbbing in my vaginal area.

When we (well, he!) was done, I would feel angry and irritated for weeks. Every little thing this wonderful man did, I would be upset about! Going out with friends? Usually not a problem, then suddenly I would think "Yeah right, I bet he's meeting another woman" (Ouch!). Tired when he gets home and he wants to be alone and watch a movie? Normally I would say "Okay, enjoy *kiss*", but days after sex that same thing would put a frown on my face, and I'd think "he probably hates spending time with me". Ugh!

Some people get cranky when they don't have sex? Well, I got cranky when I had sex!

Lately, I didn't even care about having sex with him, no matter how horny. I didn't want resent the experience yet again...

I was so anxious about this, I felt like I wanted to break up with him.
I thought it was all my fault, so I have tried so many tricks, more than I dare tell him, yet nothing worked.

I never understood this. Then in an unrelated forum, someone desperate asked for help. Someone asked if he was circumcised, and she replied that he was. So the helper shared a link to how it can be more difficult for women to orgasm with a circumcised man, and that's why it's so common nowadays.

Uh? I thought only Jews were circumcised? And that it was only a little cut, not ripping out the whole skin? Then I learned so many boys are circumcised as baby boys as routine! And to learn of all the drawbacks? How awful!

All my partners before were intact, and yes, I'd noticed that my boyfriend's penis looked different. I was so confused because I couldn't give him a hand job or oral... I searched and searched for help and ideas, but nothing worked! When I try, I feel like I'm going to pull his penis out of him... or that I'm some sort of a sewing machine going up and down up and down really fast. With my previous partners, I'd known instinctively what to do, even without having to read how to! And it felt so lovely to give them hand jobs and oral sex, but when I try it with my boyfriend, I get too disgusted to continue.

I thought his penis looked different just like people's noses or eyes look different... hahaha!


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Alright, anyway, here is the whole reason I am posting.

Normally during intercourse with him, I get really dry, sore (and sometimes bleeding), and swollen after he's been at it for a while, no matter how wet I start.

I'm posting about my experience so this maybe helps you enjoy sex more, whether or not your partner is restoring (as I wish mine will :-) )

* Lay down and face each other.
* Place your legs around him, with your thighs under his waist. I also tried my thighs under his thighs, but it hurt my skin and it was more difficult for him to thrust.
* You should hug close so your whole body (specially your PELVIS) is close to his.
* Stay put and let him do all the work for now, see if it works for him. Don't move your body much, and let him get used to it.
* If it sounds like he's enjoying it, then you can start kissing/caressing.
* This is very different than he's used to, once he gets used to it, hopefully he will be very relaxed, his thrusting will be soft, and he will start kissing you and caressing you, gently too.

Isn't this great?

I admit that neither of us were able to orgasm, however, this was much more pleasant than usual! I even fell asleep, relaxed, after we were done. We held hands and it felt like his hand and mine were the same (yes, I know this is just hormones speaking, but usually when we hold hands, it feels more like a bother. This time it felt... just.. I don't know how to explain)

* He could stay inside me for a while, and I always stayed wet and comfortable.
* He thrust softly and it really sounded like he was enjoying it.
* My clitoris area felt good without manual stimulation.
* I felt myself start throbbing, not strongly, but it's encouraging! He said he felt it too, so I was really happy :-) By his sounds I could tell it was good, unfortunately it wasn't strong enough to cause him to orgasm.
* And really important as well, is that he was so relaxed, so for once(!), he was able to kiss and caress me, and when I did the same to him, he didn't get distracted from his thrusting.

Quite honestly, I think that just this experience alone will make him seriously consider restoring.

Assuming that he was being honest,that it really felt good for him*, then I think he will see "if I can do just this little thing and make it feel so much better for both of us, then I wonder how much better it would be if I restored?"

I also paid attention and I saw that he has enough extra skin that he can cover his half of his glands when hard (if we pull it over and then hold), that's a good thing, isn't it? Without feeling too optimistic, doesn't that mean that restoring would be much faster for him than a man who was cut to tight?


Now I have a question for the men and women here:
* This is a really silly question, but do you think he was being honest about it feeling very good for him? I'm afraid he is saying it just because it was a position I could finally enjoy, so he wants to do it for me.
As in, "well, I'd better do this and say I like it, or she won't have sex with me for another couple of months!"

I wonder if a man here has tried this position while circumcised, and if it really felt good for you. Or if you can try it, please let me know, I'd be so happy to know from other men.

Thanks.. :-)

Very interesting post thanks for the tips. I am circumcised, and while I am still a virgin when I do go to town on myself I can tell you one thing it is not rhythmic its non stop bam bam bam bam bam. I am restoring now, and it should make things a lot better. As for you 2 if you get him to restore it will be a lot better for him, and better for you. He will be able to have sex you with normally. Sex isn't meant to be bam bam bam bam...done. its supposed to be how it was with an intact guy. Thats why the joke seems to be that almost all men suck in bed. Try getting him to restore, but don't force it on him. If he doesn't want to do it don't force him, and don't make him feel like he's less of a man. If you do that then he is probably just going to get pissed. Best of luck!

[Xtreme_Chaos]

Is it really that bad? :-(
I keep thinking what it would be like to have the clitoris hood (it's a foreskin, right? It opens up when excited) always exposed and stimulated... I think I would get numb too!

That's what I was afraid of. I've had him go slow on other positions before, and he does it for me, but I can see that it brings no enjoyment to him. With this new position I described, he really seemed to be enjoying it, so I was hoping... :D

If any non-restored men can try the position and let me know if it's any good for you, thanks. I hope you have fun experimenting.

Is that even possible? I think the foreskin just stays behind the glans. He showed me playfully how he could get it to cover the glans, with his hands.

Or do you mean he should tug/tape to cover it?
(EDIT: I meant that he can cover his gland half-way while NOT erect, and only if he pulls/holds the skin there with his hands)

I don't think he will try tug/tape yet. If I ask him to tug or tape I'm sure he will freak out, so I'm afraid of even mentioning it.

And I apologize that my OP was very long-winded, but believe me, I was super excited about this... :) I've been lurking here a while...


Yes, it really is that bad.

I started restoring due to women leaving me because of what Im sure were sex issues. Looking back, more than 5 times out of 10 sexual encounters I was asked to stop before I could cum. Everytime I left women sore and slightly painful.

To this day I have been able to orgasm less than half the time due to such insensitivity.