Repeated trauma

[w.o.f.]

Reading up on trauma variants online yields the info that there are two different types of trauma: one-episode trauma and repeated trauma.

I recently wrote in another thread (http://foreskin-restoration.net/forum/showthread.php?p=74318#post74318) about how imho a portion of our user base has difficulties embracing restoration as a process, a work in progress, and speculated that this may have to do with trauma. Trauma is usually marked by e.g. a negative outlook on life and the future, a generally self-defeating attitude (which can get in the way of any long-term projects, including restoration).

In another thread, I recently wrote (http://foreskin-restoration.net/forum/showpost.php?p=71437&postcount=25) that PTSD is something that always happens to someone by outside force. The OP there was suspecting that he might have given himself PTSD.

Thinking a bit more about it, and especially about my own experience growing up, I now realize that there may be something to it, and that depending on disposition and personal history, circumcision may indeed lead to either of the two types of trauma.

Quite obviously, one-event psychic trauma (associated with Type I PTSD) is probably always involved, at least for people circumcised in their infancy or childhood years (probably less so for people voluntarily circumcised in their adult years).

But I now believe that it's actually possible to additionally suffer from Type II, the repeated trauma. Here's why.

I remember waking up every day of my youth with self-defeating thoughts on my mind like "why me", "how could this happen" etc. This was even before I found out about the actual losses involved. I just knew that being circumcised was bad for me, it simply struck me as wrong on every level. Those years couldn't have had a positive effect on me. I'd even go so far as to suspect that this may in fact lead to a type-II trauma/PTSD. Repeated trauma is usually associated with people growing up in warzones or ghettos who suffer constant stress.

But constantly waking up to thoughts of the sort that "life doesn't make sense anyway", "nobody can help me", and experiencing those thoughts particularly in situations a young person is supposed to just enjoy seems eerily similar to the root causes described for Type II trauma.

Needless to say, the boundaries are not clearly defined. But depending on personal disposition and history, I bet that there is a certain percentage of us who clearly suffer from a repeated trauma, at least to the same extent as they suffer from Type I, or maybe even stronger (I suspect this might be the case with myself).

[mark85]

According to my sister, an infant can't get PSTD because you have to have been able to form memories in order to re-experience the trauma. They may be traumatized in some other way, but technically I don't think it can be PTSD.

[tzj38]

According to my sister, an infant can't get PSTD because you have to have been able to form memories in order to re-experience the trauma. They may be traumatized in some other way, but technically I don't think it can be PTSD.

I am sure very early trauma adversely affects us in unconscious ways. We may experience certain adverse physiological responses from certain stimuli due to trauma that occurred as a baby or even while developing as a fetus.

[mark85]

I'm just saying, according to my understanding, that being able to form memories when the trauma is experienced, is a requirement for something to be PTSD.

[w.o.f.]

According to my sister, an infant can't get PSTD because you have to have been able to form memories in order to re-experience the trauma. They may be traumatized in some other way, but technically I don't think it can be PTSD.
Your sister is wrong. Trauma events like rape in infancy do have horrible, very real and lifelong effects on the victim. And trauma needs to be differentiated from PTSD.

Also, my post was mainly about Type II trauma, not Type I trauma or PTSD.

[JimOZ6]

I'm just saying, according to my understanding, that being able to form memories when the trauma is experienced, is a requirement for something to be PTSD.

You and your sister are using exactly the same argument Mark that PROCIRC lobby uses. Why is that? So babies can't form memories? Babies don't feel the knife? Therefore none of this can possibly be traumatic?

What IS the magic age in your sisters opinion that one BEGINS to form memories and BEGINS to feel anything? Do all memories have to have language associated with them?

And your sister is an authority on this because....?

Jim

[mark85]

Your sister is wrong. Trauma events like rape in infancy do have horrible, very real and lifelong effects on the victim. And trauma needs to be differentiated from PTSD.

Also, my post was mainly about Type II trauma, not Type I trauma or PTSD.

Like I said, all I'm saying is that you need to have memory of the experience in order for the symptoms to meet the criteria of PTSD. I'm not saying memory needs to be formed for there to be any trauma at all, that would be ridiculous.

[mark85]

You and your sister are using exactly the same argument Mark that PROCIRC lobby uses. Why is that? So babies can't form memories? Babies don't feel the knife? Therefore none of this can possibly be traumatic?

What IS the magic age in your sisters opinion that one BEGINS to form memories and BEGINS to feel anything? Do all memories have to have language associated with them?

And your sister is an authority on this because....?

Jim

That's not what I said at all, and my sister is a doctoral student in psychology. I also asked her about PSTD without mentioning circumcision at all, so there goes that insinuation.

[JimOZ6]

Mark, let's try this again.

PTSD starts with an experience that one replays over and over again. You are suggesting that this is not possible for an infant. You can try to pretend that isn't what you said at all, but in fact, you did. Might be omission on your part by not finishing what you were trying to say; but left as it was; sure sounds that way to me.

My question again, still completely devoid of circ insinuation is "What IS the magic age that one BEGINS to form memories and BEGINS to feel anything? Do all memories have to have language associated with them?"

If one cannot have a causal experience of PTSD as an infant, what are the criteria before this can happen? I then go on to state that one of the pro RIC arguments is that infants don't have feelings anyway so they don't feel any discomfort at circ. The assertion that PTSD can't start at infancy sounds too similar. All of this seems to imply infants don't have emotions, and so cannot experience causal events leading to PTSD. I assert that infants are almost pure emotion - every experience is new, including horrid ones. Thus, I believe that causal events leading to PTSD can start at birth.

[mark85]

You know what, I've stated the extent of my understanding of this issue, and anything beyond that is beyond what I'm capable of, so I'm just going to back out of it. Only thing I'm trying to bring to the discussion is a healthy dose of skepticism, that's it.

[w.o.f.]

PTSD
PSTD
This is not about fully differentiated PTSD. It's about trauma.

[Not-B-Angry]

According to my sister, an infant can't get PSTD because you have to have been able to form memories in order to re-experience the trauma. They may be traumatized in some other way, but technically I don't think it can be PTSD.Memory comes in a variety of modalities...not all memory is cognitive...I will not go into my experiences... but I can prove that infants have memory. There is muscle memory, tactile memory, etc. As a professional with a Master's Degree in Psychology, I do not buy into the model of "early childhood amnesia". Just because many memories are overlaid by new ones, does not preclude other memories from being formed and surviving well into adult hood.
I have two individual stories that prove my point empirically. One of which nearly knocked my mother down when I told her, because I was less than 3 years old when it happend. The other I was even younger, and had no way of knowing the information I was "feeling". Some day I may be brave enough to go into detail on this forum. But as an individual who has worked with disturbed and abused children, I know that just because trauma happens early, doesn't mean that it is without effect and lasting psychological damage. Any one who has expererienced PTSD will tell you that it can be a muscle memory or tactile memory... it's not about "logical" thought.
Then there is the issue of neuronal imprinting. That is the first sensations of an organ imprint upon it, the relationship one will have with that organ. When your first experience with your penis is being held down and having the tissue ripped, crushed, and then sliced (especially without anesthesia as was mine) then it's easy to understand how that experience of trauma, violence, and abuse, get imprinted upon the nerves that go to and from the penis.

[mark85]

Well, from every source I've inquired, it requires cognitive memory in order for it to be ptsd, and for an infant under 1 year old, that's supposedly impossible. Supposedly attachment disorders are possible though at that age.

[AnonL]

There's a good paper about circumcision trauma in this recent thread:

http://foreskin-restoration.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10144

I would think the exposure of the wounds and glans to clothing must be further trauma on the child lasting weeks or months.

[Not-B-Angry]

Well, from every source I've inquired, it requires cognitive memory in order for it to be ptsd, and for an infant under 1 year old, that's supposedly impossible. Supposedly attachment disorders are possible though at that age.

Yes, you are right about attachment disorders...they usually take years to develop as it is trauma that disrupts the natural attachment process. Thos of us with more secure attachments assume that attachment is just how humans are, but the truth is we have to learn to trust though an extensive, repeated series of caretaking--having our need met. When this is dirupted trust does not develop--leading to potential sociopathy.
To build off my previous statement...I think it's important to separate the effects of trauma with PTSD. They are not the same thing, and Mark85 you and your sources could be quite correct about memory and PTSD.
My point was not to disagree with you or your sources...but to point out that Memory can exist in a variety of forms, and can happen much earlier than "experts" predict...that being said, when an infant suffers trauma, there can be psychological effects--even if it isn't PTSD as defined in the DSM IV.

All things being equal...infant circumcision is a traumatic insult to the child, and its effects are permanent reminders of that initial trauma... I wasn't just held down and hurt, they ruined my penis! They cut off something I wanted (I was using it!).

On that point we all agree, no?

[mark85]

Of course, I'm not saying that it can't be traumatic at all, just that it can't result in PTSD.

[insideout]

I would think the exposure of the wounds and glans to clothing must be further trauma on the child lasting weeks or months.

This still affects me, and I was cut at birth. I can't imagine what I must have seemed like to my parents. They have often noted that I was hyper-sensitive.

While the dorsal side of my glans and inner foreskin have relatively thick skin, I was cut in such a way that my inner foreskin still bunches up around the corona when I'm sitting or cold. The result is that the inner foreskin, frenulum, and glans are still very sensitive on the ventral side. I'd imagine a lot of other cut guys experience something similar.

One major reason I want to restore is to gain a bit of control over the level of sensitivity in my genitals. I'm sick of feeling what should be uniquely sexual sensations every time I move around.

[AnonL]

This still affects me, and I was cut at birth. I can't imagine what I must have seemed like to my parents. They have often noted that I was hyper-sensitive.

While the dorsal side of my glans and inner foreskin have relatively thick skin, I was cut in such a way that my inner foreskin still bunches up around the corona when I'm sitting or cold. The result is that the inner foreskin, frenulum, and glans are still very sensitive on the ventral side. I'd imagine a lot of other cut guys experience something similar.

One major reason I want to restore is to gain a bit of control over the level of sensitivity in my genitals. I'm sick of feeling what should be uniquely sexual sensations every time I move around.

I've experienced a lot of physical discomfort too, especially in adolescence, but I never had any idea that it was due to circumcision. I thought everybody had to deal with it and it was just natural. Especially playing sports and going to the beach, there was physical pain I just assumed was normal. That's one of the things that pisses me off the most about this is that I feel I've been lied to my whole life by people's silence. It's like everyone implicitly agrees "your pain is imaginary, it's of your own creation. nothing was done to you, and you're wrong if you think there was."