The foreskin isn't part of the penis ?

[Anon47]

Said my psychiatrist. That's fucking dumb isn't it? I thought penis was the term used to describe the whole male sex organ (apart from testicles).
The foreskin is just as much part of the penis as the glans is.

I'm going to have to school this bitch next time.

I did say it would make me uncomfortable within future relationships to be circumcised. She couldn't understand and even said some girls prefer it.
I said: I wouldn't like a girl who preferred a cut penis. That says something about the girl. The psychiatrist did not understand. What if I were to say I preferred girls who had had their clit cut off?

She tried to tell me about STDs infections and cancer. We only had 30mins so I did not even attempt to explain things to her. ie it's all bullshit.

She then told me 'i won't argue that it's bad or good'..

I told her I lost my sexual development and exploration. She tried talking shit about how many circ men devlop fine and said multiple times: "you're blaming circumcision for sexual issues". I NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING TO DO WITH SEX TO HER BESIDES CIRCUMCISION. But yes circumcision does cause issues!!!!


HOW CAN PEOPLE WHO PASS YEARS OF STUDY BE THIS FUCKING DUMB?

I UNDERSTAND SHE PROBABLY MUTILATED HER SONS DICK AND CAN'T HANDLE IT. BUT DAMN, I THOUGHT PSYCHS SHOULD BE LOGICAL AND NOT IN DENIAL.

[z726]

Do you plan on seeing her again? I would recommend finding someone else, but if you don't have the choice, let her know how this previous conversation bothered you. It seems to me that it would be counterproductive for a psychiatrist to raise such a point of contention with a patient. Had you told her, or was she doing so unknowingly?

[kevin1992]

Next time maybe going better into it why you hate it and stuff.

It is true that the foreskin is part of the penis. Maybe not anymore as it is cut of but it is menth to be a part of the penis. Verry strange she says that is is not a part :s

People dont understand it verry much, i hear lot of times that people prefer it or dont bother it or something. They just dont understand the problem.
And offcourse she dont understand that you prefer a girl who is against circ. You want a girl who dont like you the way you are. That would sound a little wierd to me too. Offcourse there is a good reason to want that. But she dont understand that, becouse she dont get the point of the problem.

Guess you have to tell her more about the problem. And that lots of men maybe are fine with it, or even happy with it. But that you are not. That you dont like it. That it is not a blame for sexual issues but that you really have sexual issues becouse you are circed. Just come with good facts and stuff.

And yes, even the people who study for so long and hard are sometimes fucking dumb. docters, psychiatrists, so much "smart" people. :(

[airpud]

Psychiatry is a scam. Did she try selling you any snake oil?

I respect people with real jobs, like plumbers. Not wordsmiths, bloviators, and scammers.

[mark85]

Wow, that's a rough situation. I find it odd that she argued with you in the first place, seems unprofessional, uncaring, and dismissive. Like z726 said, next time explain how what she did bothered you, and don't argue with her. I don't know if you have to keep seeing her, but it's not a good thing that she's dismissing something that obviously hurts you very much. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that a mental health professional would so bluntly dismiss someone like that and argue with them. You don't have to take that shit, being a psychiatrist doesn't make her an authority on the issue, despite what she'd probably like to think. There is a process to finding the right MHP.

[miamee]

Psychiatry isn't a scam - I disagree. There are terrible psychiatrists though - that's for sure. If you're able to, it might be time to shop around. A good psych, therapist, whatever should at least validate you and your feelings - regardless of their personal opinion - that's their job. She sounds like she's crap and I'd try to find another if possible. I told my therapist and though his opinion differs from mine (he's Jewish), he understands, was interested, and most importantly, respected my stance.

[mark85]

Psychiatry isn't a scam - I disagree. There are terrible psychiatrists though - that's for sure. If you're able to, it might be time to shop around. A good psych, therapist, whatever should at least validate you and your feelings - regardless of their personal opinion - that's their job. She sounds like she's crap and I'd try to find another if possible. I told my therapist and though his opinion differs from mine (he's Jewish), he understands, was interested, and most importantly, respected my stance.

I'm wary of psychiatry, but yeah, I wouldn't judge psychiatry by this person, she's clearly not the norm. I think it's apparent that she cared more about her own mental comfort than her client's, and that's fucked up.

[peterpink]

I THOUGHT PSYCHS SHOULD BE LOGICAL AND NOT IN DENIAL.

I have never had personal experience with psychiatrists, but from what I have observed many that enter that field are outside what I would call the normal range of human behavior. Remember she is just reflecting the values of her society. She sounds too judgmental to be doing her job. Give her a copy of the O'Hara's book to read or print off a copy of these papers to educate her. http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/cold-taylor/ and http://www.nocirc.org/touch-test/bju_6685.pdf

You should also get her to read the grief pages of this site and the mothers' comments at at http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=112410

[nomorepal]

Time for a new therapist. I don't think bad of psychologists, they're people we can vent to and help us sort out these problems if there's too many. Never been to one, probably wouldn't hurt me, but if someone doesn't understand me or at least act interested in learning the real destruction of what's done, time to move on.

[miamee]

Exactly. This one should have her license suspended until she can purchase some empathy. I can't believe she would say that to you.

[Anon47]

I am annoyed but also not surprised.. I mean, we know. If everyone else knew too then it wouldn't happen. But it does.

At the time I spoke to her I was veryyy tired. I was not fast whited by any measure. But I was assertive and mostly clear in what I was saying.

I agree I should not see her if she's to show absolutely no empathy or understanding of circumcision.

I will be challenging her next time. There is no point in seeing her if she is so useless. I wonder how she will re-act. Actually I smile at the thought of her squirming and having her medical authority questioned - she is both a doctor and a psychologist.
Actually, i don't know if I should go back at all. Her views of circumcision say a lot about her as a doctor. Meaning she may be flawed in many other ways.

This really says something about psychiatry. It seems as though they make a fictional reality rather than explore the one that is there. What I mean is, they won't research anything that they don't want to know about, and in many more areas than circ they will do studies in a way that leads them to the desired result.

I did also comment on men who have no problem with circ being in denial and just as I barely finished the sentence she tried to babble on about something else. As if to say "lalalalaalalalal NOT LISTENING!!!!!"

All of your posts have been inspirational as to what I could say if I do go back. thanks

I respect people with real jobs, like plumbers. Not wordsmiths, bloviators, and scammers. I think much of it is total bullshit and over expensive. Like many industries it will expand into areas where they are no longer helpful simply so it will make more money. That doesn't mean that there isn't a tiny amount of beneficial services being offered by them.

[mark85]

She can have a different view on circumcision than you and it can be fine, it's not her personal views on the subject as much as her completely unprofessional response. She made your therapy about her and her "authority", she showed a complete disregard for you. It's your time, it's supposed to be about you and your well-being, she is supposed to be empathizing and understanding where you're coming from, but she just dismissed you and argued with you because you didn't align with her worldview. If you don't have to see her again, then don't see her again. There's no point in going back just to take jabs at her, she's not worth your time or effort.

I'm not an apologist for psychology, and definitely not an apologist for psychiatry, but she is not someone you should judge all MHP's by. This is not how it's supposed to be done. The reality of finding mental health help is that there's going to be bad fits, and sadly, there's going to be some that are simply bad at their job. She's bad at her job, there's not supposed to be wrong things to feel or say in a therapist's office, and that's basically what she was saying, that you're wrong and your feelings are wrong.

You said she was a psychiatrist as well as an MD, right? If you don't need to be prescribed meds, then maybe you should look into a psychologist or counselor instead. Someone more focused on talk therapy.

[Anon47]

Okay, you are right. I can go back to my regular doctor and ask if he knows anyone else. It is true I shouldn't have to go back there to change her views on something and get her to be empathetic. That's not what the appointment is about.

I won't judge them all by her. I've only ever had one other psychiatrist in the past and that was a failure because of me, at that time i didn't talk and was to shy to really tell the psych about my real problems.

The strange thing is she said "i'm not arguing whether it is good or bad". But as you can see from what she said... She obviously was.
Apparently her reputation is good, perhaps only because she's been around a long time. I don't think patients are ever very vocal when this sort of thing happens. I'm not sure if there is a way for ME to be vocal bout her either? Besides telling my normal doctor that I'm not happy with her behavior of course.

Perhaps I do need meds, even though i strongly wish that I didn't. I have problems that don't need to be discussed here but yeah. (And i know a lot about these drugs so no one here needs to warn me of them).

[peterpink]

If you do not go back to her, I would print this discussion and send it to her.

[Anon47]

EDIT: I have decided to download and send this video via dvd to her.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgoTRMKrJo4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD2yW7AaZFw

I may cut down on much of what I have written as it doesn't need to be said if I am to include that video.

If you do not go back to her, I would print this discussion and send it to her.
I have decided to write a letter instead.

Here is a draft if you would like to comment if there is anything that could be improved. I don't want it to be any longer unless there is something important I have missed.
Page one:
I am writing to you in regards to the responses you gave while I was attempting to express how circumcision has harmed me mentally and phsyically.

I found your behaviour to be un-professional. You were both dismissive, argumentive and you were unable to show any compassion or empathy, something a good psychiatrist should be able to.

Do you know how mentally painful it is to not recieve any recognition from society for this? I had hoped you would react differently, given your position.
How would you treat any other victim of child rape? How dissimilar is being tied down and fucked, to being strapped down and mutilated with knives and clamps? I guess the difference is that mutilation leaves permanent physical ailments along with the emotional.

You were audacious enough to suggest multiple times that I was simply blaming circumcision for my sexual problems. Yet, I had never mentioned any such problems to you. I can't express how un-professional you were in saying that.

Another thing you said which was simply absurd: "The foreskin is not part of the penis". What can I say? The penis is as complex as any other organ, consisting of more than the glans and shaft. That is, if the rest of it isn't torn off at birth.

You said also "some girls preferr circumcised". I said "I would not prefer a girl who did. That says something about her as a person". Is it not easy to guess what I meant? I wonder what people would think of me if I said "I prefer girls who've had their clit cut off at birth, it looks better". Females are no longer ignorant either. We now have internet, everyone has seen porn, and they know what the penis is supposed to look like. On-top of the fact sex with a foreskin is more pleasurable to women.

You seemed confused as to how my sexual development was ruined. I can tell you.
Male genital mutilation removes nearly ALL of the very specific sexual and highly pleasurable nerve endings from the penis.
In a normal male the head of the penis is protected and sensitive. Without the foreskin it becomes dry and desensitised.
The gliding action of the foreskin is lost with circumcision. Some men have somewhat restored the gliding action by stretching shaft skin over their glans (which takes around 2 years). From men that have done that I have heard claims of "100% better" all the way to "20 times better". And that is without gaining any of the nerves they lost back.

Your consistent arguments and dismisal of my concerns made me suspect you have personal motive behind your actions. Most of us have family who are victims of this abuse. But if you were at all professional you would disregard your own feelings and focus on me, the patient.

I won't pay such a high price for such a poor service from you. I cannot continue my visits, as you are what bothers me about society. When I sit around thinking "why should I bother doing anything in life?". It is illogical things like circumcision that lead me to think that. How can I not dislike society when they are so hypocritical? That is, every other form of child genital touching, child rape is considered abhorrent, as is female genital mutilation. Yet male genital mutilation is fine, right.
I am not alone. Many men have found out what they have lost and feel similar to me. Many have become depressed, angry. For you to suggest I am wrong in feeling bad about my mutilation shows how terribly poor you are at your job.

Page Two:I'll briefly tackle your points on STDs, cancer and infections:

STDs/Cancer: Children are not at an immediate risk of either of these. No other surgery is done without the pateints consent, nor is any other surgery done decades earlier than one would be at risk of whatever is being prevented.

STDs: Studies in Africa have shown small benefits. Though, the USA has the highest rate of circumcision and HIV/AIDS among first world nations. Suggesting circumcision isn't very effective.

Infections: Can be treated with medication. All if not most infections exist in both genders. Females seem to manage with medication.
Anyway, i'm pretty damn tired as usual so perhaps I could have written it better. I always end up obsessing over these things long after I should have gone to bed.

[peterpink]

People who have been academically trained expect references.

You could quote this for the African studies:
One African study claimed adult male circumcision reduced HIV infection by 60%. ‘While the absolute reduction in HIV transmission associated with male circumcision across the three female-to-male trials was only about 1.3%, relative reduction was reported as 60%, but, after correction for lead-time bias, averaged 49%.’ See: Boyle GJ, Hill G, Sub-Saharan African randomised clinical trials into male circumcision and HIV transmission: methodological, ethical and legal concerns. J Law Med 2011 Dec; 19(2): 316-34.

There is no significant difference between the incidence of penile cancer in circumcising and non-circumcising countries. (Fleiss, P.M., Neonatal Circumcision Does Not Protect Against Cancer, Letter, BMJ (London), Vol 312 No 7033: Pages 779-780, March 23, 1996.) Penile cancer typically occurs in old men and is ten times less common than testicular cancer. In the intact penis occurs on the glans or foreskin, but after circumcision a tumor is most likely to develop on the circumcision scar.( Bissada N.K. et al. (1986)). Penile cancer on the circumcision scar had been reported in the British Medical Journal in 1907, 1979 and 1987.( British Medical Journal, June 15, 1907, p 1412; Boczko, S. & Freed, S. (1979); Rogus, B.J. (1987))

The largest studies show no correlation between acquiring sexually transmitted diseases and the presence of a foreskin. (Van Howe, R.S. (1999); Dickson, N., van Roode, T., Paul, C. (2005); Laumann, E.O., Masi C.M., Zuckerman E.W. (1997); Dave S., Johnson A., Fenton K., et al. (2003); Richters J, Smith A., de Visser R., et al. (2006))

Get her to check out the results of the Global Survey of Circumcision Harm (including the photos) at http://www.circumcisionharm.org/results.htm

[airpud]

Forgive me for sounding like an un-PC jerk, but you kind of asked for this in the first place. Why would you trust any doctor of any kind since you were mutilated by a doctor? Why would you ask a woman for emotional or 'psychological' advice. YOU are schooling HER for free. Please don't school her for free. Tell her to fuck off and then send her a bill for that.

Ahem.

Post scriptum:

UG Krishnamurti said the mind doesn't exist. Um, that makes psychiatry a total 100% scam. Al of our actions are about survival only. No need to ask some bitch duck-turd for advice.

Society is garbage. It's so bad that doctors are worse than pedophiles. Beyond pathetic. But if you eat dead animals and pollute the planet maybe it's your karma to b circed?

[mark85]

Forgive me for sounding like an un-PC jerk, but you kind of asked for this in the first place. Why would you trust any doctor of any kind since you were mutilated by a doctor? Why would you ask a woman for emotional or 'psychological' advice. YOU are schooling HER for free. Please don't school her for free. Tell her to fuck off and then send her a bill for that.

Ahem.

Post scriptum:

UG Krishnamurti said the mind doesn't exist. Um, that makes psychiatry a total 100% scam. Al of our actions are about survival only. No need to ask some bitch duck-turd for advice.

Society is garbage. It's so bad that doctors are worse than pedophiles. Beyond pathetic. But if you eat dead animals and pollute the planet maybe it's your karma to b circed?

So since doctors perform circumcision, that means all doctors of any kind don't do anything of value? What kind of retarded logic is that? When it comes to circumcision in this culture (whether it's doctors or just joe blow off the street) we're going to eventually encounter resistance, but that doesn't mean we should just give up on all people ever understanding or ever being able to help us with the plethora of problems we're liable to have over the course of our life.

Well if he said it, then it must be true, right? The "mind" is just a term we use to describe the human consciousness, which is just the experiential effect of the processes of the human brain. Modern psychology/pscyhiatry assumes nothing mystical about the human mind, they're not suggesting some form of dualism.

All of our actions are about survival only? Uh yeah, like when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save their comrades lives, or when a person donates an organ to a loved one, or when someone kills themselves. What a narrow-minded and baseless statement that is.

[slickskin]

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with your psychiatrist. They are supposed to be supportive, not tell you how wrong you are. Since it's not their therapy session, they should keep those opinions to themselves.

I talked to a counselor about how upset I am about being circumcised. She also was uneducated on the matter, but she was able to identify that my anguish was real, so took me seriously.

[airpud]

So since doctors perform circumcision, that means all doctors of any kind don't do anything of value? What kind of retarded logic is that? When it comes to circumcision in this culture (whether it's doctors or just joe blow off the street) we're going to eventually encounter resistance, but that doesn't mean we should just give up on all people ever understanding or ever being able to help us with the plethora of problems we're liable to have over the course of our life.

Well if he said it, then it must be true, right? The "mind" is just a term we use to describe the human consciousness, which is just the experiential effect of the processes of the human brain. Modern psychology/pscyhiatry assumes nothing mystical about the human mind, they're not suggesting some form of dualism.

All of our actions are about survival only? Uh yeah, like when a soldier jumps on a grenade to save their comrades lives, or when a person donates an organ to a loved one, or when someone kills themselves. What a narrow-minded and baseless statement that is.

Wrong, dumbass. All our actions are about survival. Specifically survival of the species. Direct or indirect, whethere we know it or not, our actions are about survival.

Avoiding doctors is good. Not avoiding them is bad. General and true statements.

Soldiers at war - perfect example. I never said survival of self.

Intactivists also. They dont get their wn foreskin back but fight so others wont be cut. Survival of th species.

Circ - in its own twisted way, hwever "wrong" is also an attempt, unknowingly, t aid the survival, however indirectly or badly, of our species.

[airpud]

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with your psychiatrist. They are supposed to be supportive, not tell you how wrong you are. Since it's not their therapy session, they should keep those opinions to themselves.

I talked to a counselor about how upset I am about being circumcised. She also was uneducated on the matter, but she was able to identify that my anguish was real, so took me seriously.

Im also tryng t be supportve by causing a rejection of allopathy. Lets be independent and strong.

We need to reject the system presently in place.

Cnstruction workers and drivers have real jobs. Psychiatrist and snake oil sellers dont

[mark85]

Wrong, dumbass. All our actions are about survival. Specifically survival of the species. Direct or indirect, whethere we know it or not, our actions are about survival.

Avoiding doctors is good. Not avoiding them is bad. General and true statements.

Soldiers at war - perfect example. I never said survival of self.

Intactivists also. They dont get their wn foreskin back but fight so others wont be cut. Survival of th species.

Circ - in its own twisted way, hwever "wrong" is also an attempt, unknowingly, t aid the survival, however indirectly or badly, of our species.

Oh, you declared that I'm wrong and called me a dumbass, I guess that means you must be right.

And suicide is done for the survival of who? Murdering a child is done for the survival of who? Having sex with birth control is done for the survival of who? Cutting your hair is done for the survival of who? Going skydiving is done for the survival of who? Climbing Mt. Everest is done for the survival of who? I can already foresee you trying to basically expand the definition of survival to include anything that someone might deem beneficial to themselves or others in any respect (psychologically or physically), whether directly or indirectly. If that's your extremely open-ended definition of survival, then I agree with you.

[kevin1992]

Avoiding doctors is good. Not avoiding them is bad. General and true statements.



So, you never go to a hospital in your whole life? If you have a heart attack, you just die? u have an accedent and your belly is lying all open over de highway, you say no to medical help as the ambulance is arrived?

Offcourse your party to say no. I dont want a docter in front of me eather, but sometimes maybe nessesary.

[airpud]

Oh, you declared that I'm wrong and called me a dumbass, I guess that means you must be right.

And suicide is done for the survival of who? Murdering a child is done for the survival of who? Having sex with birth control is done for the survival of who? Cutting your hair is done for the survival of who? Going skydiving is done for the survival of who? Climbing Mt. Everest is done for the survival of who? I can already foresee you trying to basically expand the definition of survival to include anything that someone might deem beneficial to themselves or others in any respect (psychologically or physically), whether directly or indirectly. If that's your extremely open-ended definition of survival, then I agree with you.

Suicide. Maybe the person knows he is screwed up and to protect others he kills himself. The reasons would be extremely complicated and the person might not consciously know them.

Skydiving. Watching movies. Etc. learning new things, seeing how you do in that environment. The skydiver wont consciously know all the reasons.

Dancing, music. For social cohesion, showing off your body, for meeting the opposite sex.

Beer, clubs. Ditto.

Cutting your hair. Attracting the opposite sex, looking good at work. Directly about survival.

Gay sex, religion, circumcision, etc. more complicated but at some level, yes, about survival of the species.

Religion. About the group, helping each other. Not pretending to "believe in God" means, in today's world, not being electable as president of the USA.

When broken down, everything is about survival, even circ.

Can you name any act that can be proven to be unattrbutable to survival? If not about survival, what are these actions ultimately about?

[Anon47]

Forgive me for sounding like an un-PC jerk, but you kind of asked for this in the first place. Why would you trust any doctor of any kind since you were mutilated by a doctor? Why would you ask a woman for emotional or 'psychological' advice. YOU are schooling HER for free. Please don't school her for free. Tell her to fuck off and then send her a bill for that. Avoiding doctors is good. Not avoiding them is bad. General and true statements.
I found your post humorous. Perhaps I shouldn't see a therapist. Today I told my normal doctor what a bitch the therapist was and how she dismissed my circumcision concern.

His response (from memory):
We don't do that any more (ie for any reason, besides severe cases and we haven't for a long time).
Why did you get it done, did you have infections or something? ( I am 19 but even that long ago RIC had been stopped in this country (australia), it was only done on specific request by the parent).
Me:
No, I was 3 days old
Him:
Oh, okay... Yeah people usually did circumcision for (insert social reasons here).

He is a good doctor. and also happens to have asperger syndrome like I do so he doesn't annoy me.

I agree about much of what you said on survival.. We evolved to survive and have sex/make babies.

But, a therapist may be able to help me become a better person and hence have greater chance at making babies. That's if a good one exists. They are really expensive and often are no good.

You're right i shouldn't have to school her. I will do something eventually though i'm not sure what, as her behavior was crap.

[airpud]

cutting off her inner and outer labia, her clitoral hood, and her clitoris and her tits wouldn't be enough. but damn, she'd be a lot cleaner! you'd be doing her a favour! dont do her any free favours!

what we need is a complete rejection of the system. from top to bottom.

watching Zeitgeist, it is easy to understand why americans don't have (deserve) their foreskins.

http://documentary.net/zeitgeist-the-movie-2007/

the bit at the end, what Sri Chinmoy said, although quite excellent, didn't go far enough.

i say this:

love is a dirty word. it implies you are not me. it implies we are not one.

triversity
diversity
university

[airpud]

You're right i shouldn't have to school her. I will do something eventually though i'm not sure what, as her behavior was crap.

get photos of her and explain what she said and out her on the internet as a scam.

there are some good doctors out there.

there are some good priests out there.

these appear to be the exceptions that prove the rule.

if a doctor of any kind gets money, it's about the money. they dont give two shits about you. dont see them, even though it's free in Oz.

[Anon47]

hmm i'd not seen zeitgeist before. It was great. Edit, just realised there is a second one. Watching that as well.

I'm not sure what to think of sep 11. Most people will call those who believe the 'conspiracy theories' crazy. Though, i'd call them crazy for believing everything they are told. It is true most people sit around watching mindless dribble on tv while showing no interest in real issues. So how could they know anything?

When I was... probably a young teen. I remember asking my parents. "How does money exist? You are paid for your jobs, you get the money from your boss.. But where does it end? How does money initially exist? Where does it come from?"
I'll admit I haven't thought about that for a long time. But zeitgeist has explained it very well. I don't think most people have any idea how it works...

get photos of her and explain what she said and out her on the internet as a scam. I have done this. Without photos of her as i don't have any. Hopefully my posts will show up if she is searched on the internet.

By the way, here is her: http://www.bowerplace.com.au/private-practice/dr-lynette-rose
It's frustrating to know that someone who could have such a good piece written of them, could also support the sexual assault, torture and mutilation/disfigurement of children.

if a doctor of any kind gets money, it's about the money. they dont give two shits about you. dont see them, even though it's free in Oz. Yes, I have realised, and it is sad.

[John Flushing]

Said my psychiatrist.
Tell her that her big toenail is not a part of her toe. It's just an extra piece of keratin.

[airpud]

'conspiracy theories' crazy...

And yet it's the US Gov't who says it's all a conspiracy by Bin Laden et al.

All you have to do is check the dictionary definition of the words 'conspire' and 'conspiracy'.

The gov't is the pot calling the kettle black.

Did you see the video footage of the plane smashing into ther world's most protected bldg, the "Pent-a-Gone"? No??? Uhm, either did I. NOBODY has footage of it. And nobody has the remains of two 7-ton Rolls Royce engines that would have, as they claimed, simple vaporized upon impact.

It's so lame it's not even funny. Don't get me started on the perfect demolition that was bldg 7 or the impossibility of the towers coming down after two little planes hit them.

etc etc

[airpud]

Tell her that her big toenail is not a part of her toe. It's just an extra piece of keratin.

Tell her her brain isn't part of her body. It's just an extra pile of shit.