View Full Version : genetics of sperm and sex
July 23rd, 2008, 00:11
I'm not sure if this is the right section for this, but I came across an interesting post in another forum regarding the concept of sperm wars (there's a book of this title) that I found very interesting and wanted to get some people's thoughts. The central thesis of sperm wars is our most unacceptable and non-monogamous behaviors are hardwired in our genetics to further the cause of reproduction, thus offering a simple and counter-intuitive natural explanation for them.
The post I read stated:
"Our sperm is physically designed to fight or block other men's sperm. This means we are physically meant to group-fuck girls- who seem themselves designed to be with more than one guy at once. So biologicaly sharing your wife with another man is normal. So it seems reasonable that enjoying watching that happen should be normal too."
I am sure this statement is shocking and many will dismiss it outright. That is fine. But beyond that, and for purposes of challenging discussion, does anyone have experience with this, or thoughts on such libidinous tendencies?
July 23rd, 2008, 12:11
Yes indeed. I have read up a little on this. However, you are a little wrong with the "gang bang" idea. From what I have read (dont recall site off hand) humans natural tendency would be expected to have a single main partner (spouse) and have extra sexual affairs outside of the main relationship.
Another factor that leads to this believe is the size of testicles. People often mention humans are bigger than gorrillas, relative to body mass of course. But the one you don't hear people mentioning is the fact that cimpanzees are even bigger than humans(Still in the land of relativity!). And studies have shown that gorillas are monogamous because they reproduce with strength and appearance-their sperm don't have to fight another gorrillas. Chimps on the other hand are a bunch of little sluts. It's basically a free for all with them and they let the sperm do the work. Which leaves us, humans, somewhere in the middle ground.
As a side note, from a social perspective I don't really see a problem with getting physical outside of a relationship under the right circumstances. Cruxify me now :p .
July 26th, 2008, 09:55
If sperm were designed to "fight" or "block" each other, then it would stand to reason that we would have other apsects that worked to limit group sex and orgies. This idea sounds totally illogical.
However, the idea that we are antural polygamists, or tend to have mutliple partners is a different argument. And some interesting ideas have been posted along these lines.
If you wish to find out how others think about this, you may wish to do some searching on the subject of polyamory. You will find how others feel about this.
August 26th, 2008, 15:10
i think the easiest way to think about it is:
Humans are biologically, genetically, born sexual; we are socialized into sexuality.
to believe this may be scary because it puts us on the same level of animals, but i have found it to be true...
the sexuality is more than just gay, straight, or bi. it is the mindset we have toward sex combined with our sexual desires. what this means is, group sex, orgies, etc. probably would be the "norm" assuming humans were devoid of all socialization.
gay, straight, and bi probably wouldn't really exist either (unless of course you assume we weren't having sex for pleasure. most animals reproduce rather than have sex. i believe dolphins and people are the only animals scientifically proven to have sex for pleasure but don't quote me on that). orientation wouldn't exist because august compte would be right when saying "humans are hedonistic savages seeking pleasure..."
assuming we weren't socialized, we'd just want what we could get and what felt the best. but all these social constructs about sex exist now and no one can be sure.
August 27th, 2008, 22:43
I agree. What's interesting is the divide you brought up: what we think and what we feel. The human libido is so intimately wound into a mysterious mind element that I don't think it's just socialization...it's the mind and it's propensity for fouling us up in a number of ways. Yeah, it's socialization, religion, etc but it is also the mind itself. One personal observation I've made in my life, as an example (and this is generalizing) is there seems to be a connection between anal sex and insanity. Now hold on there- not in the literal sense. I've noticed, for example, that women who are into that tend to be bat crazy. Sane women tend to have an aversion. I mean, guys who like to do women in the butt usually have to deal with a host of emotional probs, imbalances, etc which come along with it. I don't know why. But I wager a guess that that kind of stimulus (fucked in the ass) is so intensely stimulating to the lower brain stem that it literally scrambles it. Probably why it feels so good, too. Probably why at first it hurts then it turns into a crazy pleasure. What I'm pointing out is the connection with sex and the brain and it's synergistic effect on the mind. Might also be why gay men who are bottoms develop feminine characteristics and such. May be why they, too, can go crazy (in addition to the socialization prob). What's worse is when dissociation happens, like straight people who have gay sex. The mind does more damage than social restraints, because you can tell yourself you're fine doing things like watching your wife get gang-banged cuz you "get off", even get stimulated by the competition, but our minds play tricks, and what you liked last night- or even before you came -can turn to pure disgust and regret after. It is very hard- I would say almost impossible -to navigate the pits of the libido safely without going a bit crazy, not to mention the price of disease and other social problems that almost always make "getting off" not worth it.
August 27th, 2008, 22:47
btw straight men go crazy too, but for many other reasons.
August 28th, 2008, 15:03
...(and this is generalizing)...
I'm glad to see you admit this, because you've struck a nerve on this side of the internet connection. I'm not taking any of this personally, and I'm not offended, but much of what you said is so wrong by my experience that I have to reply and broaden your view.
I wager a guess that that kind of stimulus (fucked in the ass) is so intensely stimulating to the lower brain stem that it literally scrambles it.
I don't guess that. I haven't experienced that scramble, personally.
... so intensely stimulating to the lower brain stem ... Probably why at first it hurts then it turns into a crazy pleasure.
No. It hurts until you learn to relax your anal sphincter muscle.
gay men who are bottoms develop feminine characteristics
Sorry Taoist, doesn't fit me nor my bottom friends.
It is very hard- I would say almost impossible -to navigate the pits of the libido safely without going a bit crazy, not to mention the price of disease and other social problems that almost always make "getting off" not worth it.
Thanks for the compliment. I've managed to navigate them well for the past 32 years with no craziness, no diseases, and no serious or notable social problems.
We have very different viewpoints perhaps because we have had very different experiences. I'll stop here.
August 28th, 2008, 20:48
I knew that offering those thoughts would get me straightened out. Glad you didn't comment on the female anal sex- cause that is one thing that is dead on. I don't pretend to know what gay sex is like, I only know from my brother (who is a bottom), but he tends to sometimes agree but most times tell me I don't know my ass from my head.
I will stand by my concept that the libido is by definition crazy. It is not explainable, doesn't make sense, makes people lose their minds and any and all reason, and control. Glad to hear you've done it well, but you are vague about what experience that entails, and I've gotta say you make it sound like sex for you is just simple and easy, and the fact is it ain't for most people. By definition we don't "get off" on the right things, good things, nor the right people. I'd love to hear why my brother and ALL his friends chase straight men. I'd love to know why so many gay men do develop fem characteristics. What is that about. In fact, the only masculine gay man I know is a top AND doesn't give but only receives oral (maybe he only tells me this cuz we box together). I don't think we have very different viewpoints, Robert, it's that you have more experience than me in some areas.
And thanks, Captain Obvious, for the tip on learning to relax your sphincter. Try tellin that to a woman some time. Even the ones "up for anything" don't appreciate that.
Maybe for gay men sex is a lot easier. I wager gay sex is better than hetero. Don't know, but from the sounds of it you get better at things than we do cuz you ain't hung up like breeders. You can just "relax your sphincter". I wanna get a t-shirt made with that on it.
I do have anal experience with women both giving and receiving (not strap-on but toys n such) and I DO say it's an orgasm 100x more intense that without. I'm sure this varies with people, but it is a sort of mind-numbing feeling and does unleash some different intensities, to put it mildly. Add to that role-playing and other craziness and slide on down the rabbit hole. To me...sex is great when it takes me totally to madman land, but also when it exquisitely releases me in pleasuredom. The erotic experience for straights is always tethered to something acceptable, usually by the woman, and crazy good sex women are always crazy. The ones who ain't, we marry and have kids with. Why is it that it's this way? I dont know, maybe cuz libidinous gratification isn't conducive to family life. I like hearing from guys like you that have it made in that area, in fact am jealous, but real life for us straight guys with kids (and hot wives who are also the mothers of our children) just doesn't match up. For Christ's sake you ain't called gay for nothin.
August 28th, 2008, 21:11
I would love to know specifically how you've navigated your libido, as you've said. What I'm referring to above is the propensity to get lost in our libidinous cravings and many subsequent pains in the ass (sorry for the pun) that can just plain go with them (such as hurt feelings, misunderstandings, jealousy, disease, threat of violence, probs associated with annonymity, unwanted stalking, judgemental attacks, backstabbing, social slander, and just plain old depression and self-loathing). I'm bein serious. I respect and appreciate your views and experience.
As a note, I realize above you states you've navigated without these things, which I gotta say is impressive. I talk to my bro and friends who are CONSTANTLY dealing with HIV and drug use in the community, as well as other social problems.
August 29th, 2008, 12:54
First, thanks, I appreciate your reasonable and calm reply. I was not looking forward to a 'bull in a china closet' reply, and you steered clear of that. You took the time to give me a little more info to help me understand where you are coming from.
But I don't think I can adequately address all the points you've made in these last few posts. Not in writing. That's a whole book I'd need to write. This looks like something we'd have to discuss, compare, and debate over a Guinness or two. Not sure that's possible.
August 29th, 2008, 16:40
What's worse is when dissociation happens, like straight people who have gay sex.
What about bi-curiosity? Sure this is labeling, but some straight guys just find other guys interesting in a masculine way, too. Why is it that straight guys are so afraid of being sexual together for fun (i.e. circle jerks, whatnot) - is it because we're all homophobes? I think RobertW will understand what I mean by this. Personally, I wish I would have had this growing up - and even now - where I could/can be more comfortable with the sexuality with other guys, instead of trying to hide it. Rather, just be men together and share something common and identifying.
sex for you is just simple and easy, and the fact is it ain't for most people.
The erotic experience for straights is always tethered to something acceptable, usually by the woman
maybe cuz libidinous gratification isn't conducive to family life.
I see this exactly in my own relationship. It is definitely my woman who calls the shots in the sack. It's like I have this "need" to do crazy stuff/positions, but she just doesn't go for it. In fact, when I even try to get her to be on top, she is always worried I am going to go into her a$$ and she gets all hesitant. So most of the time we just end up doing the missionary. Though I do tell her that it is her body and she has that right to only do what she is comfortable with. Trying to be a gentleman, ya know?
And then she likes to say that a good poop is better than sex anyway. HUH? And how is that supposed to make me feel? :confused:
So if now is a preview of the next fifty years, it doesn't look like sex is ever going to be on a mind-blowing level. Despite this, I try to remember that life really involves much more than just the bedroom. She is a great companion and we can talk about everything together, among other things. That is what is supposed to count the most, right?
(btw: we're doing pre-marital counseling right now, so I feel a bit analytical)
August 29th, 2008, 19:01
What about bi-curiosity? Sure this is labeling, but some straight guys just find other guys interesting in a masculine way, too. Why is it that straight guys are so afraid of being sexual together for fun (i.e. circle jerks, whatnot) - is it because we're all homophobes?
Just my opinion here, but I think not. I truly believe sexuality is not an either/or situation. I reject the notion that only hetero and homo exist. And having bi in the middle does not solve the puzzle at all. I truly believe sex is a continuum from one extreme to the other with all points in between possible. No one should be made to feel bad about where they are on that continuum.
So based on my belief, some of the "straight guys are so afraid of being sexual together for fun" (your words) because they don't know they can do that and also stay right where they are on the sexual continuum. I believe those guys fear they will slide down to the homo end if they play with guys after, about say, age 12. But they won't slide down unless that's where they belonged in the first place and just didn't know it yet. And yes, I know straight guys who play with other men and remain in their place on the continuum. They just don't talk too much about it.
In politics we have only Dems, Repubs, and sometimes a few Independents in the middle. In sports we have two teams play off. There are other parallels you can think of -- communism/capitalism, democracy/dictatorship, etc. So as Americans we are conditioned to think in terms of taking sides. We need not do that with sex because that is not natural, in my opinion. We should find our true niche and stay there, wherever it is. For some, it is at the extreme ends. For others, not. But to fear being where one is, is a waste of a life.
August 30th, 2008, 15:02
pmg28...welcome to the club. And you're dead on right. Life is more than the bed. That's the challenge. Women who are all about the bed...usually burn the house down. Generally speaking. We make choices, and accept blessings and let others go.
A buddy of mine used to make a joke- he used to get a girl to "relax her sphincter" by saying "just pretend you're takin a shit.". I used to laugh for hours over that one. Maybe you can try it with your wife. :-)
One bit of advice for doin more things- just do them, don't ask first. Forgiveness is always easier than permission. And some women don't wann be asked, they wanna be done to. Not by force, but by momentum. Asking gives them the natural opportunity to say no. You should know the limitations of this, however.
As far as the gay sex thing...many men do that but it causes that crazy factor, cuz on some level our partners will know. And what goes around subconsciously is crazy-making. And when it accidentally errupts into consciousness (like in Senator Larry Craig's case), you get dissociation as a form of damage control and the extent of what you've been doing conflicting with your aforementioned values in life become horribly muddied. I'm not saying you can't do what you want, and Craig is just a sick A hole, but unless your wife is cool with you jerkin with guys (and from the sound of it not) I'd expect any fallout from accidentally discovered homosexuality would be disasterous. When you're single, hey- get it all ways you can.
I do want t add that most straight guys who have gay sex (and you can chime in Robert) usually want out and away from the situation the second they're done coming. This indicates a split. I think bi-curiosity is fine as long as you're very secure in your sexual identity and any experience is erotically fulfilling rather than closet-consumed.
August 30th, 2008, 15:23
Robert: I agree that they fear sliding. However that may not really happen, the feeling of that may be enough to make everything else in their life go fucked up if they engage. The point I'm making is you have to be very secure and conscious to engage in a wide variety of sexuality or it WILL over-take you, usually in directions and situations we don't really wanna go. Case in point- you and your buddy are jerkin together, then next thing you know you've got his dick in your mouth, then you're gettin ready to take it up the ass and your wife comes home. Now you've got a divorce on the grounds that you're taking your family's well-being and threatening it, threatening her with the poss of HIV, and now you're labeled a fag. Now was it worth it? The easy is a big fat NO. And it took you where you really didn't wanna go with it.
We always sell ourselves just short of the reality. I'm not saying any of that price or reaction is warranted or right, but you're gonna have to have balls of steel to stand in front of that kind of ceiling collapse and not flinch.
Speaking of ceilings, Dennis Rodman, upon Carmen Electra catching him in bed with two chicks, told his wife (Electra) that they just fell out of the ceiling. Maybe that would work. Didn't for him. Sometimes you can just say "Are you gonna believe me or your lyin eyes??". Pull it off and I'll suck every guy on this post.
I think there are very strong reasons we don't do this. And as you said, Robert, straight guys that do don't talk about it. First rule of Fight Club. Know the second rule? Don't talk about Fight Club.
Do what you do and don't get caught. And if you do...deny deny deny.
August 31st, 2008, 14:45
Robert- if you ever come to LA, let me know. I love Guiness.
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