Sexual orientation [Archive] - Foreskin Restoration / Intactivism Network

1Taoist

June 17th, 2009, 23:13

Recently, I came upon a distinction that I wanted some clarity on, and I thought maybe some men, especially those who are gay, might be able to address:

There is a friend of mine, who is gay, who has (to me) a curious disposition which I find odd and was wondering what it's all about. He is very straight-like, meaning has no discernable gay characteristics, but from time to time bemoans the gay community for it's "affectations", which I get. He relays to me his sex life (to a minor extent), which isn't too terribly active, but he does so mostly in context to relationship management, and mostly the lack of it. No different than my straight buddies who are over playin around and want to "settle down". What I don't get is his sexuality only seems to include what I'd call "straight-man gay sex", which in essence is only activities which a straight man could get away with without being actually gay- receives blow jobs but doesn't give, gives anal sex but doesn't receive. He claims this is just "what he likes", but I wonder. Either he lies to me (which presents another issue), or, to me, he appears to be uncomfortable with "gay-committed sex acts" (although I don't even consider any of these distinctions real).

There is a joke that goes like this:

A gay guy and a straight guy are sittin around by themselves with nothin to do, finally the gay guy says "hey, why don't you let me just give you a little head? You can close your eyes, no one will know". The straight guy thinks about it, figures "BJ sounds good", unzips his pants. Soon the gay guy is workin it like like a blow-pop. The straight guy is in heaven. Then suddenly the gay guy comes up and tries to suck some face. The straight guy stops him and says "Whoa, whoa. None of that gay shit!"

I'm wondering if having these sorts of sexual "preferences", or exclusions, means nothing...or an indication of something, due to it's convenience in avoiding anything that might seem "feminine", or "gay".

Anybody know about this? In his credit, I will add that one reason he says he avoids taking it in the ass or giving head is the HIV problem. But...I still don't get it.

Can any straight guys say that they only get head but don't go down on their girlfriends, or fuck them only on top and never be on the bottom (bad analogy, best I could do)?? I can't imagine bein that restricted.

Love to hear any explanations or thoughts on this monuMENTAL issue.

Thanks.

Joseph

June 18th, 2009, 02:32

Not sure I buy the "if I only get from a guy, but not give to a guy, I'm still straight" line.

If you're participating in sexual activity with a person of the same sex, even if it's just "getting," it is for all intents and purposes homosexual activity.

Such a guy has got to be at least a little bit bi-. SOUNDS like some men want to keep that definition of "straight" because it conveniently allows them to escape the title of "gay/bi" or heaven forbid he admit he's a little bit curious at least...

Maybe your friend's just a strict "top?"

Not sure about everyone, but I think sex is a two way street. If you want to get, ya gotta give. Unless you're a completely selfish asshole. Love it when my woman gives me head, and I'm always glad to return the favor.

"Woah, woah, woah. None of that gay shit..."

HAHAHHAHHAHAHH!!!

1Taoist

June 18th, 2009, 14:31

jeff71913

June 18th, 2009, 15:01

Alfred Kinsey stated that most people are bi. I fit into that group as well, however, I prefer a man. Sexuality can be very complex. I know guys that are very macho, yet, in bed they assume the role of the bottom. Some of them have very feminine boyfriends and the one you might think of as the feminine one is actually the top. Personally, I like both roles. I can't imagine just receiving and not giving. Anal sex has gotten a very bad rap in out country due to our puritanistic background, you know, the same background that advocated cutting off parts of little boys penises. I have read several articles that discuss the sensitivity of the penis, etc. Many of them clearly indicate that the anus is highly innervated, just as the foreskin is. I have no doubt that most men would enjoy anal sex if they could overcome their homophobic feelings, but, that isn't so easy. Many women have no problem with pleasing a man in this way, as a man doesn't have to be gay to enjoy anal sex.
Nevertheless, sexual issues can run very deep and often times there is no clear answer to our questions.

jeffrey

AntonioRaphael

June 18th, 2009, 15:54

Joseph

June 18th, 2009, 18:19

Let me clarify he is not the least bit in denial he's gay- he's openly gay. That's not the point. His sexuality seems to indicate a less-than-openness. That's what I'm inquiring: openly gay men who are not open sexually.

He has mentioned that taking it in the ass is "is not alpha", and I suppose suckin dick isn't either. His fear seems to be what he calls "weakness", or acts that put him in the position where giving, to him, is being "taken". Or something.

I wonder if, while gay sex is gay sex regardless of giving or receiving, if there is a psychological distinction, where some acts can be psychologically dom or submissive, not gay or straight, and such a person's orientation is more a psychology than an identity.

Well, this relies on a few assumptions.

First, that "gay" has a specific set personality characteristics and rules of conduct.

What IS "gay?"

Does it mean a man likes to do ALL sexual activity with men? Or is he entitled to what he finds pleasureable?

Me, personally, I wrestle with the idea that even though a couple is same sex, that there is this tendency to copy heterosexual gender roles. Top vs bottom. Bitch vs butch. Calling the anus a "pussy" in a "queen." (?) Calling anal sex "breeding." (Breeding WHAT? Shit and cum children?)

For whatever reason, homosexual couples take on male/female roles, and that's just the way it's going to be. I recently stumbled upon a "report" that lists population of top vs bottom by state. Apparently New York is where most tops are, whereas California is populated by bottoms. (?)

So because of what this country's culture consideres "masculine" and "feminine," this could also be affecting the way gay relationships work as well. (Admittingly, this is just my perspective. Nothing scientific in my observation at all.) In this country it's not considered "manly" to take it up the tailpipe. A man doesn't suck dick...

So maybe your friend isn't "not open sexually," he just simply strictly adheres to his "top, male, dominant, butch" role.

We also have to look at as well, that even straight couples have dynamics. There are femenine guys with butch female partners too. Some straight guys like to get head, but not give back to a woman because "he's dominant, manly and doesn't do that." Women shave, men won't be caught dead doing it. etc., etc. This is changing nowadays, as men are shaving their crotches more, and some adventurous men have their wives give it to them with strap-ons. (Shh!!! Don't tell anyone!) Maybe as the importance of defined gender roles changes in this country, we might also see a change in gay relationship behavior, and we'll see less and less strict top/strict bottom guys.

I'm convinced, however, that in this country, there is still a heavy tendency to do what is conventional. Heaven forbid you break the mold. I think it's the reason why there is so much homophobia, and why the gay agenda is having a hard time trying to get stuff like equal marriage rights passed.

So back to your friend... yeah, I really just think he's got a strong sense of being "the man." It makes him uncomfortable to deviate from that established "norm" of dominance.

I've got a couple of gay friends, and sometimes when I hang out, there's this friendly, love-banter about who's the "top" in the relationship. Though it's probably all in play, I think there is a certain degree of seriousness in the matter. There has to be a "top." This establishment seems to be important. Why? I dunno. Haven't met a gay couple that looks like they're both equally masculine "tops," or both feminine "bottoms." Yet. And here's where MY hang-ups come in; I'd probably be more comfortable seeing two top "straight acting" guys together, than I would two feminine "queens." With the latter I'd be like "get me outta here!!!"

Maybe -I- have a problem with breaking convention too? I think gay guys that act "straight" are cool, but I am very uncomfortable around drama queens. So even -I- seem to have this idea of what "gay" should be, when it really does differ from guy to guy and from couple to couple. Even I have some engrained ideas that I need to shake loose.

1Taoist

June 18th, 2009, 19:07

Jeff, thanks for the response. I agree, I can't imagine just receiving and not giving either. But apparently this is how a lot of relationships are, and I suspect the large portion of them fail.

Interesting info on the twist on fem/masc roles. That's the kind of info that helps. But I don't personally observe that too often, or at least hear about it. Many are the way it seems.

I actually had a conversation with this person where I expounded the powers of "feminine" qualities- yielding, giving pleasure -and that these positions were ultimately as powerful as their opposites, and in some ways more. But that is a place one has to arrive at. The ordinary sense of power, to many, is still the only kind they relate to. An example is rock stars who are feminine- long hair, makeup, etc -who are hugely powerful and get LAID. Artists who have feminine qualities inevitably kick ass when it comes to sex. The power to give pleasure is something many miss.

And in the arena of sex, perhaps many are limited by their preference for the yin or the yang. One can be mostly a top, but just to take it in the ass doesn't mean you're weak or less masculine. It means you embrace the power of the feminine, and that is not a power to fuck with. To go from that, to being a top, seems to me a great experience, and may yield a 3rd identity (the Devil is considered androgenous? Uh oh).

I just don't think it's a "this is just what I like" scenario. There is more to it, cuz as you said, there is great pleasures to be had...who wants to miss out because your mind is locked in one position?

TLCTugger

June 18th, 2009, 20:54

just to take it in the ass doesn't mean you're weak or less masculine. It means you embrace the power of the feminine,

I appreciate that generations of people have pondered this stuff so much, but I don't think there is any standard version of feminine power any more than there is a standard way to be gay.

jeff71913

June 18th, 2009, 20:59

These sexual roles that we speak of are complex, due to the fact that they have been shaped largely in part by our culture and our unique upbringing. I was raised in a dysfunctional religious family and I was taught that a homosexual was the lowest form of life on earth. I fought with that for many years, until I finally looked around me realized that my sexuality was nothing compared to all the terrible things that we see in this world. Think of all the wars, violence, child abuse, etc, etc.

I have known my roomie for several years and he was raised in much the same way that I was. He even attended bible college for a while, but, he had great difficulty dealing with his sexuality in such an environment. After he moved in with me I was shocked to find that he was a 100% top. This didn’t seem possible, because, although he is very handsome, he is also quite feminine. For years he has only been able to have sex after drinking a lot and that is beginning to change. Furthermore, he is no longer a total top, as I long suspected.

I feel that alcohol and drug abuse in many cases may be linked to an individual trying to come to grips with their sexuality. Identifying with one’s true sexuality can be damn difficult as I well know. It takes time. You have to start from square one and start all over. We have been programmed much in the same way that a computer has been. We don’t even question the files that have been placed in our brains, we just accept them as they are. To think outside the box is scary and we may be met with ridicule. We should be very careful in teaching our children to hate people because they are gay, or lesbian as we may be teaching them to hate themselves.

I still cling to many old fashioned values as I do not believe in infidelity and I have great disdain for drug and alcohol abuse. Been there, done that. It seems to me that many ultra conservative groups preach on homosexuality so much that they forget the millions of lives that are ruined by drug and alcohol abuse. I guess drug and alcohol abuse isn’t as entertaining as sexual issues. Not much surprise there :)

BTW, I do have long hair. My hair represents a thing that remains uncut. It is symbolic and indicates my negative position regarding RIC. I'm quick to tell people that if they ask. Talk about freaking someone out! lol

jeffrey

corelement

June 18th, 2009, 21:15

What abour people like me who feel asexual but bi.? lol

cobra

June 18th, 2009, 23:17

It takes all kinds. Here is a website for men "who reject anal penetration, promiscuity, and effeminacy among men who have sex with men..." Just because you're gay or bi, you have to suck dick or take it in the butt? Don't think so.

http://man2manalliance.org/

1Taoist

June 19th, 2009, 16:46

I'll check it out, but what are they for...jerkin off together and kissin?? That sounds great.

Sounds like junior high to me. Except no talkin girls into it.

1Taoist

June 19th, 2009, 16:52

Face-to-face and heart-to-heart?? I'm gonna need a gallon of Hagen dasz for this.

Just kiddin. Appreciate the link. Just parsin it out with a little humorous take.

jeff71913

June 19th, 2009, 17:34

Face-to-face and heart-to-heart?? I'm gonna need a gallon of Hagen dasz for this.

That site is more like face to face and hard to hard. Throw in the Hagen Dazs and you have a party.
They make it sound like anal sex is a terrible thing, but, if people would remain in a committed relationship it wouldn't be. I'll have to admit, in the gay community monogamy is very rare and this is one of the reasons that I am very pro-gay marrige. I believe that there are many obvious advantages in being monogamous. Disease prevention is one of them. If two people are disease free then they can do whatever they want to without fear of contracting some terrible disease. The type of sex that they describe on the site is a lot of fun, but, I like to do a little more than that. The most important thing to me is that I like to be in love with someone and I can't do that if I am having sex with everyone that comes along. Just isn't me.

jeffrey

1Taoist

June 19th, 2009, 19:51

I've only begun to read this but it's rather interesting in premise. The anti-anal thing is an interesting way of looking at things, albeit negatively. I'm gonna read the rest and respond. Thanks Cobra for the link. Not sure how it strikes me yet, very limited yet true to fact thinking. Not sure they understand anal sex.

jeff71913

June 20th, 2009, 00:45

Well, I have gone over the "frot" site quite throughly and I really don't get it. I have to say that I am very skeptical of the whole thing. They totally lost me when they state that anal penetration is not erotic. It isn't erotic if a man is overly inhibited. The anus and prostate are very erogenous areas. Not only that, they keep mentioning that to get poked in the ass is a feminine thing. I looked at some of their pics and something tells me that they are far more feminine than I am. I say, wash your butt, don't fool around with other sex partners and have fun. I guess the founder of the group must have had a partner with diarrhea at one time and it left a really bad impression on him. Go figure. Anyway, to each his own, but I like booty.

jeffrey

1Taoist

June 20th, 2009, 00:46

Alright, guys, I've been reading this website's dissertation (with am open mind), and something was standing out to me but I couldn't put a finger on it...until now.

This whole theory is in line with my theory about circ and HIV: HIV bein a largely anal-receptive disease, not one that you get thru your penis. They are establishing what I wrote about at length- that the only two main ways you get HIV is thru IVDU and...anal receptive sex. That unfortunate medically-known fact inextricably links gay sex with a destructive practice (IV drug use), AND misrepresents gay sex as "infectious", and thus gay "love" as wrong. These guys are saying the same thing- anal sex is the problem, not gay love (and it's physical expressions).

Where they fall apart is their denial of the impulse toward anal sex in general, and it's natural fulfilment of the penetrative/receptive experience that is instinctive to the expression and experience of love. They make some sort of claim that the anus and rectum are not "genitals", but that flies in the face of erotic experience as experienced BY humans. Does that mean nipples and tongues, ears and mouths are not erotic organs because they are not "genitals"? Very limited thinking that falls on it's face. Trying too hard to make an anti-anal case, they eclipse true erotic diversity.

I, personally, love anal stimulus and in some ways find it more powerful than merely genital-focused stimulus. I don't like a cock pounding my ass into hamburger, but a tongue or finger in there is simply exquisite. No denying that.

cobra

June 20th, 2009, 01:29

LOL. You guys slay me. Love your responses.

I see their point of masculine gay sex without feminizing one partner or making someone who doesn't like anal do anal because "that's what gay guys do". I also see what you guys are saying, too. Anal isn't inherently "bad" and lots of people enjoy it.

I personally do not like anal sex... it's just not my cup of tea. I have done it to others and found the experience less than wonderful. I have tried anal stimulation on myself and didn't feel anything noteworthy. I guess my butthole is not that erogenous... :confused: However, there is a spot under my balls that makes me boil over if my wife starts rubbing it during sex. Everyone is wired kind of differently when it comes to what feels good and what doesn't. For me, it's fren, glans, taint, ears, lips, in that order.

I posted that link in response to Taoist discussing a gay friend who wasn't much into certain types of sexual behavior that is stereotypically considered "gay" acts. That frot site is a different kind of gay site that is about masculine gay acts. I really don't think there is any getting around the fact that getting it in the rear is a feminine type act. You are taking the male partner's organ into your body, much like women take the male partner's organ into their body. I don't see how you can turn that into an aggressive, masculine act. Males penetrate. Females receive.

Whatever you like doing... it's all natural and normal. People are just different about what they like.

1Taoist

June 20th, 2009, 12:57

You misunderstood something I said Cobra. I didn't mean the feminine act can be turned into a masculine one- I meant that the feminine can be powerful too, sometimes a more powerful one than masculine, and when looked at that way it doesn't have to be viewed as weak.

The ability to receive can be a very powerful position. An example is have you ever been screwing your wife slowly and she lays there with her legs spread as far apart as she can and she just stares into your eyes and you start to come and she doesn't even have to do anything but look into you...and you feel totally vulnerable, totally owned by her?

Same I suppose for guys. I'm a pretty skilled fighter, and one time in the ring an opponent and I were tied up and he was tryin hard to "penetrate" me with blows and suddenly I just relaxed and let him all the way in, turned, and he flew across the ring and and out of it like a bullet. I've never done it, but if a guy wanted to fuck me in the ass, I guarantee you I would turn that action as well, like a female spider- I'd kill him right as he comes. And sometimes pleasure is a killer. Think about that.

And Jeff- nobody is forced to have anal sex that doesn't want to, unless they're bunkmates in prison. I agree with you that these guys are suspect. I just don't get it- somehow rubbing penis' and hearts is totally masculine and anal penetration is...destructive? Which is another way of saying feminine is destructive. Stupid, stupid, stupid. My evidence for this is simple: the penis is the vehicle of HIV, the anus is just where it arrives. In other words...it's the masculine that is destructive.

Rub rub rub your cock, gently against your buddy's...

No. Do they just duel glans' while saying heart-felt things to each other face to face?? How bout face to cock? No, that don't work cuz one's on his knees. Gimme a fuckin break. I know martial artists (myself included) who can manhandle people on our knees. Just another way of looking at it.

I wonder if they say shit like:

"hey you been workin out?"
"yeah".
"man, your duck feels really good".
"thanks, so does yours".
"god, where's a pussy when you need one?".
"I know".
"oops, sorry, I know we said we wouldn't do the butt thing."
"no prob".
"whoa."
"right back at you, dude".
"no prob".

...

"how bout just a little bit?"
"ok, just the tip though"
"alright. Here goes...yeah, nice, NICE..."
"Uhhhgghh...FUCK MY ASS YOU BIG DICK FUCKER!"
"OH SHIT. Uhhhggghhggrrrrawww."
"ok, my turn now"
"sorry dude, gotta go. This ran way late"
"what????"

have a nice day, guys.

cobra

June 20th, 2009, 14:04

"Man, your duck feels really good"...?

Hee hee hee

I don't think I said feminine was weak... maybe I did but I don't think so. I only stated anal has a feminine connotation because it is a receptive act. Even if you could break a dick off with your powerful male asshole muscles, it is still a feminine act... Note to self: do not bugger Taoist. Asshole muscles too powerful.

Before you knock frot, consider that anal sex is not that special to alot of people. I think it is kind of gross. At least with frot nobody's duck smells like poop afterwards and you don't have to worry about getting some weird viral or bacterial infection from the nasty critters that live in the bowels. I'd rather put my dingdong in someone's mouth or vagina. Consider, too, that you can simply put your weiner in between someone's legs. With a bit of spit for lube, it can feel rather nice, and the receiving partner (male or female) will be stimulated by the movement of the penis without the pain and potential health hazards of anal penetration. I don't know if there is a specific name for the dick between the thighs sex, but there should be. It's a fun and safe sexual act that is pleasurable for both partners.

1Taoist

June 20th, 2009, 19:09

I'm trying to get thru some of these articles on this website, and I gotta say I wish there were more "think tank" sex sites presenting thesis-oriented approaches to modernizing sex. It's interesting to see people try to push consciousness.

But these guys are a mess.

I think the central problem here is over-thinking. These guys are all over the map- promoting fidelity and christian values with biblical backing- comon. The good book just ain't about all this. Let's leave all that shit alone.

But theologically, it's an interesting premise that the biblical condemnation of inferred anal sex (a man laying with a man as a woman?). I mean WTF? Where does it say anything about anal? I think there's a bit of stretching goin on here, and it ain't foreskin restoration.

I guess rubbing genitals together is nice, but I don't get the kissing. Don't you have to be gay for that? And what's all the "in love" stuff? If guys are gettin their nut off together, the last thing that should be in the mix is love- we get enough of that with women. If a guy is jackin my cock to his and we're face to face, he better be sayin some pretty nasty shit to me, cuz if he even mentions the word love my dick is spaghetti. Just sayin.

But maybe that's good on brokeback mountain.

1Taoist

June 20th, 2009, 19:15

How bout all the times we guys try to get a piece and the girl says "do you love me?" and we're like "uh, yeah...yeah...sure I do" when we really want her to say "does my pussy feel good? You wanna fuck me, don't you? I want you inside me. I want your big cock up in me and I wanna feel you explode.".

But they don't say that. At least unless they've had a drink or two or six.

1Taoist

June 20th, 2009, 19:42

These guys are goin WAY off the deep end with this anti-anal stuff. Fine, you don't like it. Fine. But don't try to make sense of sex. None of it really makes any sense. Gimme a break. The minute you're tryin to make sex only sensical, you suck (not literally, apparently). These guys just get off on dick-to-dick, or whatever they call this. They like lookin at cock.

And sayin the frenulum is the only pleasure spot? This is just nonsense and ass-backwards puritanical gayness. These guys have more "shoes" than the million-man march.

Puttin your tongue in somebody's ass is "eating shit"?? These guys wouldn't hit the side of an erotic barn. They're just consumed with fear of their own sexuality. Hence all the monogamy and religion.

Sheesh.

Many cultures throughout history don't even expound monogamy because that isn't conducive to true sexual expression. Most cultures that understand sexual experience accept this as...a counter-intuitive facet of human sexuality. Monogamy is nice...but not the essence of life. It's only safe. And sex with a variety of people in ones lifetime is just that- the human being living. The human being is spiritually inclined for monogamy, but not physically. And reality exemplifies that people's sexual capacity with one person ebbs and flows, and doesn't really live in idealized form. This is an example of people's fear of sexual abandonment and expression. I guess this one author here didn't have any problem rubbing dicks with a straight married guy. ? Where was his respect for the dude's wife? Nowhere to be found. Horse shit.

Notice how all these pix have nice-lookin guys with EXACTLY THE SAME COCK. Looks like an idealized sell-job to me.

"Mancunt"?? I'll admit it looks nasty and weird when a guy is ass up like a bitch, but that's the point- it's nasty and
weird. It gets some off. Rubbin dicks and kissing just...boring.

And anal stimulation is far more intense stimulus to the brain stem than just rubbing the frenulum, which is a trigger for ejaculation. If anything these guys are just ejaculation-driven. That's why takin a shit feels so good: anal sex is just shitting a cock over and over for ten minutes. Funny how our shits tend to look like a long cock much of the time. I wonder if they just do enemas every day rather than let a black cock slip out of their ass every morning while reading the paper.

Anal sexuality as a adjunct to stimulation is just that- an adjunct to the personal stimulus of certain people. I'll admit it's so stimulating it's actually crazy-making. But that's good for some. But it's also just too much for many.

This ain't any different than people who promote missionary-only sex, or sex with the lights out, or orthodox Jews who wear a sheet with a hole cut out for sex.

Sorry to say, but the variety of sexual expression and experience is pretty wide, and this takes no account for or even addresses the mystery of libido. I'll give em points for trying to delineate sexual performance, but this "sex is genital-to-genital" thing is shit-eating. Really.

cobra

June 21st, 2009, 00:39

I have seriously never took a shit and thought "Oh yeah wow that was good." I must be missing something. I know there is supposed to be erogenous nerve endings in the butthole, but I seem to be missing these to a large degree. Just natural variation, I guess. Conversely, my frenelum is way more than an orgasm trigger. Mine will puff up when I am turned on, and rubbing it will bring my ass off the bed. Masturbation involves me pulling the skin up and down while pressing on the fren and coronal ridge through the prepuce. I can cum just spraying that spot with the shower head. Even if I hold the skin up over it.

That's not to say I do not have experience with anal. I had an old girlfriend who loved it in the ass. The dude I messed with when I was a teenager also seemed to enjoy it. As for what I liked back then, frot was mainly what I liked, not being butthole oriented. Being more of a straight bi man, I never felt as comfortable doing anal and blowjobs. Rubbing dicks seemed much more masculine to me personally, and don't underestimate the intensity of grabbing your and your partner's cock in hand and jacking them together til they blow.

To each their own. You like anal. I think it's just ehhh... kinda shitty... ;)

Joseph

June 21st, 2009, 03:40

I don't think it's outlandish that people find the asshole to be sexually unappealing... I personally find it to be disgusting. I would never put my tongue directly on the orifice where dirty, stinky excrement exudes from, nor would I ever want to put my cock in it.

There's a whole range of other things that I will never bring myself to do. Electric stimulation, for example. S and M. "Sounding." (Putting rods in your urethra.) "Golden showers." Exhibitionism. Etc., etc.

"...the variety of sexual expression and experience is pretty wide..."

This is true, but this does not necessarily mean that every single person out there will be open to the entire sexual spectrum.

People have preferences for what they like and do not like sexually. That they have these preferences does not make them "repressed."

I wouldn't call what these guys are into "repressed," just more sophisticated.

I think you're being too judgemental.

There are quite a lot of groups of people that get together for a particular sexual activity. Swinger's clubs, for example. Jack-off clubs. S & M groups. This is just one more group of people getting together for a particular form of sexual epression.

"...the variety of sexual expression and experience is pretty wide..."

You are right. Give these guys a break!

1Taoist

June 21st, 2009, 11:36

You're getting it wrong. These guys aren't making the case that their deal is cool, they're making the case that everything else is wrong and somehow they've found the "right" way for gay sex. I can't believe you don't get that.

Why else does somebody try to disparage all other forms?

Borneo

June 21st, 2009, 18:10

I don't try and ponder my sexual exploits too much.

I'm gay and what is called a "Flipper". I do both fucking and getting fucked. Depending on what my latest conquest is into, I can manage that. My only trouble is that my conquests are few and far between.

The top/bottom dynamic is certainly out there, but I've met many men who are into doing both. It's kind of an advantage to being gay. Having 2 activities in bed to do, instead of just one... or 4-10 depending on where I put my tongue.;)

Now, as for the "emulating straight roles" are concerned, I bristle at that. True, an ass is a hole, just like a vagina, but I find it insulting that straight people would claim that I am merely trying a sham heterosexual activity. It implies that straight sex, or relationships are the ideal and gay couples have no refuge but to aspire to emulate them. To me, that's a load of shit and insulting, even if my gay partner buys into it. It's simple anatomy. A dick is made to fit into a hole, and it's usually a fun place to put it, so similarities in sexual activity are bound to be inevitable, no matter the gender of the partner.

Now, your friend I probably would not hare much patience for. There are times when I'm in the mood to do the total worship thing, but there is other times where I'm into being worshipped. I can probably have a good time with him once, but I'd get tired of his "alpha" shit real quick.

One advantage of being a gay male is, that if your friend ever called my ass a "pussy", I don't have to close my legs and order him out. I can physically pick him up and toss him off my balcony.:D

Borneo

June 21st, 2009, 18:20

Calling anal sex "breeding." (Breeding WHAT? Shit and cum children?)

Joseph, just a clarification... "Breeding" is condomless sex, where the top cums inside, instead of the pull out. It's extremely unsafe. Barebacking is also condomless, but it's pulled out just before orgasm, to squirt on some body parts, or what's called "glazing"... as in donuts.

Too much information... I know.:p

1Taoist

June 21st, 2009, 21:00

I don't think it's too much info at all. Thanks for clarifying. I think I'll glaze my wife's donut tonight.

And thanks for the I response, I think a lot of guys feel that way and is why he gets frustrated and tries to talk to me about "having a relationship when so few are ready for it". I think that the problem is real. He's responsible and cool...but he's got some kind of problem that in a way is polar opposite the problems a lot of other gays have- immaturity and sexual infidelity. I think he uses his "maturity" to cover the problem he has with commitment to gay sexual expression.

I have heard from him and others that the wiring is so different that straight analogies don't work. I've heard that some progressive straights have tried to say, in attempts to bring social progress and acceptance, that gays are just the same as you and me, just that the sex is different. Then I heard from gays that it's the opposite: they are completely different but the sex is the same.

Give that one a ponder.

I think it may come to pass that this is true- that sex is the same, but people are different. At the heart, racism is like this: we are different but our sex is the same. People fear what is not the same, and try to think somehow gay sex is the problem, but it is not. It's that gay people are different that is the problem. They can't keep gay people from being different, but they can keep them from marrying. They don't wanna sanction gay unions (by marriage), which sanctions gay sex, so one could say they don't wanna sanction gay sex (by marriage), but at heart they don't wanna sanction gay difference, but they can't identify that. Gay sex "looks" different, is classified and codified differently, but here's the thing- it really isn't. Sex is our expression, and may reflect difference, but in the end this is external.

Interesting point that men can get rid of another man they don't dig, physically. That point resonates. Under a microscope, it is seen that two men's sperm will engage in war, will try to kill one another, in the same vadge.

I agree that there is room to be both and limiting ones self to something is a reflection of limitation in character, and limitation is the strict construct of mastery- only if one learns to make that limitation work under any situation. In other words, the external is limited but the internal never is. Most people who limit themselves are resisting internal diversity, which comes off badly in relationships.

Monogamy is external limitation. And the chief reason I believe most relationships are NOT monogamous life-long is because they resist the internal diversity so much that eventually it must find an external outlet. Toys, role-playing- all things monogamous couples must use to cultivate the internal diversity that is long-term fulfilment. Gay couples, as I can see, are mostly too externally diverse, and this is why they can't sustain relationships.

Straight people sustain because, despite their internal boredom, don't have external conflict (lack of social acceptance) like gays do.

jeff71913

June 22nd, 2009, 13:12

This is all very interesting. It is true that many people find anal sex repulsive. Many people will also find the foreskin repulsive. This goes to show that we are all different and that will never change. In the case of the foreskin we need better alternatives for men that desire the natural look. This debate right here is a good example as to why I don't debate the circ issue. I know that it will never stop. It might slow down, but it will never stop.

jeffrey

Joseph

June 22nd, 2009, 15:57

Not so sure the asshole can be compared to the foreskin, though.

It's not like you can cut out your asshole if you want to appease a partner that finds it 'repulsive.'

1Taoist

June 22nd, 2009, 18:06

No, but you can bleach your asshole.

1Taoist

June 22nd, 2009, 20:18

I've read some of the sexual revolution article and I empathize with the intra-gay-culture problem for men who don't like anal sex. I didn't realize that even the gay community itself put pressure on members who didn't like anal. My original post reflects this, yet I'm not gay so I really had no idea I was reflecting an actual discrimination within the gay community itself.

I wasn't claiming my friend isn't gay, nor that he disliked anal sex- he has anal sex with men, only it is that he doesn't receive it. I think that's a major distinquishing point between my question and the premise these authors are promoting: they don't like anal at all. My friend seems to have no regard for someone who has to take his cock up his ass, while enjoying the act from his side vociferously, which is what I find suspect.

If one just leaves it at the idea that hey, they don't like anal...fine, they shouldn't be told they aren't really gay, just as straights who like anal shouldn't be told they're gay.

What these authors have done is construct an argument that is based on the historical and biblical illigitimacy of anal sex altogether, thus implying that all those gays who DO practice this are...sick.

Doesn't do much for gay identity, or in fact undermines it for their own personal legitimization purposes, which is self-serving.

Borneo

June 22nd, 2009, 23:07

Not so sure the asshole can be compared to the foreskin, though.

It's not like you can cut out your asshole if you want to appease a partner that finds it 'repulsive.'

I don't know about that. I've had a few guys who don't know how to do it properly. They just JAB IT IN!:D

Borneo

June 22nd, 2009, 23:26

I wasn't claiming my friend isn't gay, nor that he disliked anal sex- he has anal sex with men, only it is that he doesn't receive it. I think that's a major distinquishing point between my question and the premise these authors are promoting: they don't like anal at all. My friend seems to have no regard for someone who has to take his cock up his ass, while enjoying the act from his side vociferously, which is what I find suspect.

This is the crux of my opinion of your friend. I may be way off base, since I don't know him, and it's pretty presumptuous to apply personality flaws to people you don't know, but for the sake of argument, this leads to a certain POV I need to express.

I'm personalizing this as a matter of conjecture, not that I believe your friend is this person... His problem isn't the top position he is taking. There are many gay guys who don't get into receiving it. That's not uncommon, and it's perfectly natural.

What is a problem is where it comes to the "Alpha male" psychology. There's an element of respect that he seems to be unwilling to give to his partners. That those who bottom or do to him what he refuses to reciprocate are a matter of what it means to be a man, as opposed to just his preference for being a top and liking to take charge of the sex.

If this is true, then in my opinion, which won't buy you a cup of coffee, the only other men he intellectually and emotionally respects are those who see this idealized manliness the way he does. And that's a dilemma for him, because those men he does respect are just like him, and are thus not capable of sexually giving him what he wants. The only people who can give him gratification are those he finds fault with for not making the grade of being a "man" in his criteria. So sex with a partner that he truly respects as an equal will be a non starter. His ideal partner won't suck, get fucked, or kiss. Neither will he. So they watch David Letterman instead. Those men who will give him what he wants, he doesn't respect as equals. You can't form a lasting relationship without many things, but mutual respect is one big factor. If it isn't there, then the relationship is doomed.

1Taoist

June 23rd, 2009, 00:05

Cobra, you relate to a lot of this I'm sure- they completely deny the anus and rectum as erogenous at all, and claim it's sexual "stimulation" is somehow a mental trick, not physically real but merely a psychological stimulus of dominance and pain. It's interesting...as I've said, the anal sexuality is a stimulator of the brain stem, which is the raw link to the physical body. It is anything but a mental fetish, but what it does do is overwhelm the mind with physical power, causing it to black out (with stimulus that is below thinking).

My wife, for example, likes the physical stimulus of anal digital play and butt plugs, but has mental hangups that impede her initially from enjoying such pleasure. Once she is turned on, she likes it. Physically she enjoys it, but mentally, she doesn't enjoy the idea.

jeff71913

June 23rd, 2009, 14:35

I don't know about that. I've had a few guys who don't know how to do it properly. They just JAB IT IN!:D

That's another thing about being uncut. It goes in a lot better and doesn't hurt as much. When it comes to anal there is a huge difference between cut and uncut.

jeffrey

1Taoist

June 23rd, 2009, 20:41

Borneo, excellent post. Thanks. Well-said and I agree with your points. You've addressed this issue totally.

As far as this frot site stuff, which cobra side-tracked me onto and which I've rejected quite soundly...I still read and respect people thinking things thru. What I'm saying is...somewhere buried in all their retoric is something very interesting and quite possibly movable. Some of what they say is persuading me based on some personal views/suspicions I've had for a long time. I guess what I mean is that although some things in life may be a little "off" (anal sex?), it doesn't mean we don't do them. Like alcohol isn't really "good for you", or cigars/pot-smoking aren't really either, or porterhouse steaks, or infidelity. But...we still do them to some extent. What I'm saying is living life "the right way" is not only suspect, but living it "a little wrong" once in a while is a counter-intuitive strategy for existence period. None of us should really be here at all, but despite all our "wrongs" we are here. Life is imperfect.

I want to say I think there is some validity to the premise presented by these men. But it's rules and limitations are invalidating what is actually valid. Strange as that sounds.

I am impressed by human sexuality. But I am more so by how easily it can be badly done. And how wrongly it can go.

I ask that more people read some of this site's writing. The most stunning conviction is their stern conviction of the ultimate failure of anal sex, historically throughout man's history. No one is truly "ok" with infidelity, yet it happens because of the contradictory and complex nature of our stability. Despite our common belief that infidelity leads to the ruin of relationships, in many it is actually a corrective "wrong". In some cases it's a "break it to fix it" scenario. Odd as that sounds, I believe it to be true. We can't know right without knowing wrong,

Anal sex can be done in a responsible way, but most can not approach this. That's why it's easier to just tell people not to. It's a fine line of experience. Much of what we "get off on" is "wrong" or not the rosy ideal of romance. That's the odd thing about sex. It's tendency is toward "the dirty and kinky", but many are able to find good wholesome sex without such prescriptions. And that's good, I think.

I think these guys may have a prescription for more functional sex, homo as it is, but the same can be found in hetero. There's lots of prescriptions for healthy, monogamous sex between heteros. Doesn't mean the actual recipe doesn't include a few ingredients that are not that good for us.

cobra

June 24th, 2009, 02:42

jeff71913

June 24th, 2009, 04:02

After a little oral the penis will be as clean as ever.
A douche is always a good idea if serious anal sex in on the agenda. I started to say "on the menue," but that probably wouldn't be a good idea at this point. However, it isn't always necessary to go that deep in order to enjoy anal sex. Simple touching, or digital penetration is sufficient for erogenous stimulation. Nevertheless, anal isn't for everyone. It is still my favorite form of sex. Although, I will now be psychologically scarred for life.
Thanks Cobra:)

jeffrey

1Taoist

June 24th, 2009, 11:46

No docking ALLOWED cobra! Says it on the website in black and white. You are in direct violation of code 3 section 69 of frot man2man cockrub. One more violation and you're on probe-ation...ANALLY.

Borneo

June 24th, 2009, 11:52

Sorry, this looks more erotic and far less dicey...

http://nudemalez.co.uk/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/pic-kallum_and_troy_2_500.jpg

...than this...

http://www.threesixes.com/gross_pics/4/Youranalexcuseworked.jpg

You're right, Tao. Anal IS the shit! :D

New definition!!!! Docking is fun! That's what the top pic is doing. Like Apollo-Soyuz! :D

I don't need to click on the second. I've had too many experiences with fudge packing. If you want it, clean it out!!!!!!:eek: That is a hard and fast rule for me. Being gay doesn't mean you have to do scat. A $5 pink water bag at Walgreens does wonders for your sex life.

Joseph

June 24th, 2009, 12:00

I don't need to click on the second. I've had too many experiences with fudge packing. If you want it, clean it out!!!!!!:eek: That is a hard and fast rule for me. Being gay doesn't mean you have to do scat. A $5 pink water bag at Walgreens does wonders for your sex life.

What's the matter?

Repressed???

;)

1Taoist

June 24th, 2009, 12:01

Ok, that second pic was an example of "anal gone wrong". But hey, some like that too.

I once knew a guy who bought a nice new suede couch for his living room, was so impressed he brought home a chick to bang on it and got the bright idea of tappin the shoot...and guess what? Yes, his tan suede became chocolate brown (in one spot). Oddly, she said it was her best orgasm ever.

Another case made for kissy kissy heart-to-heart cockrub. No suede mishaps. Just heart burn and some lip herps.

Borneo

June 24th, 2009, 12:11

I have a serious problem with people who philosophize their point of view and come to a conclusion that whatever they pull out of their ass is some universal truth, if they think hard enough and come up with enough justifications.

Orthodoxy is a dangerous thing. To be so hard as stone to cling to your belief system that you are unable to see the flaws, or even to entertain the thought that anybody else can't see other possible realities or solutions is something we as a species have been struggling with for ever.

I don't see this little frottage group taking hold in the gay community the way Marxism's total adherence has influenced countries or Ayn Rand's free market utopianism has turned into a major economic religion, but the thinking is always the same. They hold universal truth, and anything that contradicts is a failure, a joke, something to be destroyed. Much like the absolutists who think that all infants in the world should be circumcised because of some dire threat to human existence they pulled out of their ass of that is not carried out.

Since I live it every day, I can be pretty sure that I know what's right for me. I still know that to ossify into that is also a dangerous place for me to be. It's just not society, but personally as well.

"Never follow a man who claims to have all the answers." - can't remember who said that.

Borneo

June 24th, 2009, 12:15

What's the matter?

Repressed???

;)

By my job. By the bankers. By the dominant religions. Yes. By that???? No. I take charge. "Get in there and douche, boy! I want it sparkling our you don't bring it back!":cool:

1Taoist

June 24th, 2009, 12:16

Being gay doesn't mean you have to do scat...that is the line of the year.

That should be on a billboard in West Hollywood.

And I suppose you guys just swing into wallgreens after dinner for the shit-flush bag? How romantic. And spontaneous. Maybe over your broiled salmon and new york steak, this is how the conversation goes:

Billy: So, what do you wanna do after dinner?
Bobby: I don't know. This steak is good. Mmm.
Billy: wanna try my salmon?
Bobby: sure. (does) Oh my, very tasty. Here, try mine.
Billy: mmmm.
Bobby: make sure you chew it good, or it'll end up stuck in your colon.
Billy: speaking of which, you douche?
Bobby: shit. No. I forgot. You thinkin of puttin your meat in my colon?
Billy: kinda. But right now I'm tryin to enjoy this meal and you full of shit isn't helping.
Bobby: you asked.
Billy: I did.
Bobby: we can stop at walgreens.
Billy: whatta you say we just cockrub and call it a night.
Bobby: ok. I got a hot one in the chamber anyway.