Pain to Newborns Causes Lasting Effects as Children/Adults

[cobra]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090927130048.htm

PROVEN!!!

Babies who suffer pain near birth have a lower pain threshold later in life as well as a reduced receptivity to pain alleviating drugs. AMAZINGLY, no mention of circumcision pain is made in this article. Apparently, researchers are worried about IVs, but don't give a moment's thought to ripping, crushing and cutting the most sensitive part of the body.

Idiots.

On a side note, before restoring I was not able to stand hot water-- like doing dishes or sitting in a hot tub. Now I am much more tolerant of heat. Nueral plasticity? Is my brain adjusting now that I am mostly restored? Interestingly, just as stated in the article, I am highly resistant to pain relieving drugs. Demerol has no effect on me. I usually need a double dose of novacaine at the dentist's office.

How has restoring affected your pain tolerance, and the ability of pain relieving drugs to numb your discomfort?

[ih8vtec13]

I have always had a good pain tolerance, probably cause I was pretty rough on my body as a teen. I took some pretty some pretty sick falls on skates, snowdoards, and random jackassery. I also was really into piercing as well, had a few very painful ones done too. I really was into the pain factor to a degree wonder, if that was anything to do with the circ or me just looking for a rush?

[estefan]

odd. I happen to be very very sensitive to pain (as well as any kind of touch.)

[fursure]

I dunno. This seems to be merely a trend and not an absolute. I have a very high pain tolerance, but pain medications also work wonder on me when I do get in some discomfort.

[cobra]

Perhaps you were given pain medicine before the circ where I and others were not. The study stated that pain relief during neonatal procedures seemed to lessen the later pain intolerance effect.

[Someone mundane]

I have the same deal as the rest of the posters it seems... I did go through quite a lot of anxiety when I had my blood taken as a child. But when the needle pierced me I eventually thought, "Well, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.". In a similar trend, I also had a pretty roughed up childhood being an outdoors type. I've fallen off bikes and scraped things brutally, gotten stabbed with thorns or prickly things, bitten by things, even slammed my head hard enough against a door knob to knock a (baby) tooth out. (There's a funny story that goes with that... It was premature, so my grandmother wanted to rush me to a doctor and have them "put it back in" somehow. The doctor of course thought her a bit nuts, as it would be replaced naturally, but if only she had been so conservative with my foreskin instead. :D) I also got stung once. All of these were quite painful, but they never seemed unbearable. Except for maybe getting stung.

Don't you think natural variation might also have something to do with it too? You never know. (Unless you're omniscient.)

I mean, that's four... Do you think we were all given pain relief? Could be, maybe coincidence. But that's oddly convenient I'd think.

[MelvinSmiley]

My pain threshold isn't too bad but Novocain doesn't seem to work too well for me. I end up getting like 5 shots every time I get fillings done and they have to use nitrous. My teeth are really sensitive but I think that's just because my teeth are weird.

[lessthanmatt]

I think a lot of you who are referring to physical pain are missing the point entirely. This is most probably psychological pain, or at least a psychological effect that makes you less able to tolerate large amounts of pain, probably emotional.

[MelvinSmiley]

I think a lot of you who are referring to physical pain are missing the point entirely. This is most probably psychological pain, or at least a psychological effect that makes you less able to tolerate large amounts of pain, probably emotional.

Not sure about that. I've had anxiety and depression for years and I've always been able to deal with it rather well. It's gotten bad at times but I have great willpower in all aspects of life. I had something of an anger problem when I was younger but I grew out of it (for the most part.) I still fucking hate people but I can deal with that rage in an appropriate manner.

[Bashar]

I have the same deal as the rest of the posters it seems... I did go through quite a lot of anxiety when I had my blood taken as a child.

i yelled because i couldn't take the needle going in my arm for the first time and then i was incredibly apprehensive the second time around and wanted to leave the hospital and the nurse drew blood from me and i didn't feel a thing. it depends on how well they draw the blood too. i think it was the thought of having to bare with pain and without a choice that made me feel it at first more than anything. that habit probably started in the circumcision room but now i've learned to just mentally numb the pain by thinking about different things. it could be growing up with the brain developing new connections, experience obviously makes a difference but i do think circumcision has something to do with pain processing in the brain. and it has been proven so yeah :) glad we're one step closer to not doing something.

[Majestic Maleness]

As a small child, I was terrified of anything to do with needles. I also remember being terrified of a Halloween prop in a mall walk-through that was a circling blade cutting a person in half. Through my own research, I've concluded that it was post-traumatic stress syndrome. It was easier to come to this conclusion after I was able to remember my trauma of a suppressed memory through a dream, waking up in a panic. This was right after I researched circ, and unlocked the memory.

[madbr3991]

i was not cut at birth, but when i was 4 i have had nightmares ever since. after i started learning about circumcision the nightmares have been getting worse. so i sought counseling. and my counselor basically told me to slow or stop my research and to instead improve my social life.

and a few days ago at work i saw a doctor dressed. in his blue green scrubs. walks by and my stress level went from about 2-3 right to 9+. i almost freaked out. that has not happened for a long time. i have trained to control my emotions. but this just ripped right through.

[Starboy28]

I think a lot of you who are referring to physical pain are missing the point entirely. This is most probably psychological pain, or at least a psychological effect that makes you less able to tolerate large amounts of pain, probably emotional.

I agree with you. I think there is a direct correlation in our society between the rise in violence & violent crimes and rise in circumcision rates. I believe men circumcised as infants and children have had their emotional bodies damaged by the pain of circumcision.

I have no proof of this, but it is a belief i have held for sometime.

[BlackSkullRacer613]

I absolutely hate needles, and I feel sick to even think about getting blood drawn. In fact, I feel sick just being in a doctor's office, even without needles.

[jninja]

I'm diabetic. I have no problems with needles. I stab myself at least 4 times a day and have blood drawn 4 times a year. I hate doctors too though. I'm not afraid of them it's just a waste of time for me to go sit in a waiting room for 45 minutes to talk with a guy for five and have him tell me everything is fine. I've never been afraid of pain. I actually get a sick sort of satisfaction from it. So I don't think getting cut caused me any of the psychological damage that you are talking about. All the psychological trauma I have from it after I found out about circumcision.

I do agree that circumcision has something to do with the rise in crime and violence though.

[Aussiebloke]

I agree with you. I think there is a direct correlation in our society between the rise in violence & violent crimes and rise in circumcision rates. I believe men circumcised as infants and children have had their emotional bodies damaged by the pain of circumcision.

I have no proof of this, but it is a belief i have held for sometime.


WTF? Can you explain this? Is the rate of circumcision rising or falling?

[madbr3991]

WTF? Can you explain this? Is the rate of circumcision rising or falling?

Aussiebloke stop trying to get a rise out of people.

I agree with you. I think there is a direct correlation in our society between the rise in violence & violent crimes and rise in circumcision rates. I believe men circumcised as infants and children have had their emotional bodies damaged by the pain of circumcision.

I have no proof of this, but it is a belief i have held for sometime.

Starboy28 said it was his belief and that he had no proof.
Starboy28 spoke his mind and that is his right.
Aussiebloke are you just trying to make people angry?

Aussiebloke when people speak here. they are able to talk about something. that normally would be seen as almost taboo. it takes courage to do that. so quite trying to make people angry.

[Aspie]

I agree with Starboy28 that there is a very chance that there is a connection between genital mutilation and violence however I think it goes beyond that I believe there is a good chance that genital mutilation also increase the risk for such things as self mutilation, depression, trust issues and so on.

[Starboy28]

I agree with Starboy28 that there is a very chance that there is a connection between genital mutilation and violence however I think it goes beyond that I believe there is a good chance that genital mutilation also increase the risk for such things as self mutilation, depression, trust issues and so on.

You raised some excellent points to ponder Aspie. I do agree with you.

[Aussiebloke]

I agree with you. I think there is a direct correlation in our society between the rise in violence & violent crimes and rise in circumcision rates. I believe men circumcised as infants and children have had their emotional bodies damaged by the pain of circumcision.

I have no proof of this, but it is a belief i have held for sometime.


Has there been a rise in circumcision rate?

[cobra]

Circumcision does not make you more prone to violent acts. Examining history, one can find very little correlation between aggressive societies and circumcising societies. The Nazis and the Romans and the Spartans were all aggressive societies who did not circumcise.

Of the studies conducted, circumcised men did demonstrate slightly more withdrawn behavior in group settings, showed a lower tolerance for pain, and were slightly more inclined to engage in risky sexual behavior as adults.

It's my opinion that circumcision is promoted by societies to increase productivity and as a response to religious-inspired feelings of sexual shame.

[cobra]

PS-- By the way, Aussie, crime rates in the United States ARE dropping as the circumcision rate declines.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/01/AR2010010101829.html

Just thought you should know. ;)

Almost 30% lower on the west coast... and authorities don't know why... Hmmm... mysterious...

[Starboy28]

Circumcision does not make you more prone to violent acts.

You don't know that for certain. It is speculation on your part just my opposite belief is speculation on my part.

[cobra]

Well, I think you would have to show some kind of causal link between circumcision and violent behavior.

Causality is the relationship between the first event (the cause) and the second event (effect), where the second event is a direct consequence of the first.

Does circumcision cause a change in the brain which would predispose someone to violent behavior? Is the mechanism some type of suppressed emotional disturbance?

From observing my own psychology during the process of restoring, I have noted several changes in my mentality and behavior I attribute to the differences between being cut and (nearly) intact. I am more sociable, like some studies suggest. I tend to take charge in social interactions more often. I feel more connected to my mate and my family and less work obsessed. I am more sexually satisfied, more confident in my sexual relationship, and feel closer to my wife because we have a common understanding of our shared sexual feelings. I engage in less fetishistic sexual behavior because my orgasms are more powerful and satisfying and I do not have to mentally work myself up to that big cum anymore. I am more confident and generally have an improved mood. Oddly, I can tolerate more pain than I could before (for instance, hot dish water or showers, needles, cuts and injuries). Also, strangely, I am more satisfied with doing domestic things like cleaning, repairs, where before I would get very impatient with "girl stuff". I started doing my own laundry and making the bed.

As I am just an average person, I extrapolate this onto a general population of men.

I do NOT feel less violent. Or more violent, for that matter.

I think, generally, that violence is causally linked more to lack of education, poverty and mental illness than the state of one's penis. By examining cultures, present and historically, one sees little in the way of correlations between violent behavior and circumcision status.

Then again, if one is more domestic being intact, and more prone to being in a better mood, and more sexually satisfied... one would engage in less criminal or violent behavior, right?

But is this causal or incidental?

[SwedishBoy]

Also, strangely, I am more satisfied with doing domestic things like cleaning, repairs, where before I would get very impatient with "girl stuff". I started doing my own laundry and making the bed.

Then again, if one is more domestic being intact, and more prone to being in a better mood, and more sexually satisfied... one would engage in less criminal or violent behavior, right?

I think the part about domestic stuff is because you feel happier and more confident, and you have gained this through restoration but I dont think it has to do with you being intact or not because circ'ed guys can feel the same. For example in Chile I think most men are intact but they still have a culture where women do all the "girl stuff" and men are just, men.

Although the last part about violence is interesting and I think circumsision can have a small part in it because of the importance of sex for the body hormones and so on. Intact people generally have a more active sexlife and if you dont have an active sexlife you might wana release your hormones somewhere else, for example violent acts.

[Jupiter]

I agree with Starboy28 that there is a very chance that there is a connection between genital mutilation and violence however I think it goes beyond that I believe there is a good chance that genital mutilation also increase the risk for such things as self mutilation, depression, trust issues and so on.

Circumcision is where sex and violence first meet.

[DPX1]

See, this is why I don't buy it when people say "well at least you were a baby and don't remember the pain". I think that's way worse.

True, I don't remember the pain, but I have no way of knowing what deep and convoluted damage receiving such a trauma at an early age has done to my body and mind. I can only see a video of a screaming infant and think "this happened to me". Someone subjected me to something horrible before I could even speak, when my brain was nothing but a trusting, innocent, sponge. What kind of stains are on my soul now? Would I be different if this had never happened?

Maybe this is just me. One of my worst fears is being killed or seriously injured while unconscious, like if someone in a fight were to knock me out and then stab my eyes or something while I was down. My cousin fell off a bunk bed one time and woke up with a stutter from the damage to her brain. Something about being hurt in the dark when you can't even acknowledge it and then having to face the permanent damage without so much as a memory really bothers me.

Anyone else feel this way?

[DPX1]

Oh and on another note, I've seen those BME videos (the ones that people like to post on the internet to shock people), wherein people mutilate themselves in unspeakable ways. I notice that a lot of the guys cutting up their own penises are intact. I wonder if there's some kind of subconscious pressure to hurt yourself if you're whole in our culture.

[Aspie]

Oh and on another note, I've seen those BME videos (the ones that people like to post on the internet to shock people), wherein people mutilate themselves in unspeakable ways. I notice that a lot of the guys cutting up their own penises are intact. I wonder if there's some kind of subconscious pressure to hurt yourself if you're whole in our culture.

There might be a link between societal pressures and self mutilation and intact guys however I think most likely that something else is going on. One of the ways people's minds deal with trauma is to run subconscious protocols so to speak to try and protect body parts which received the pain and damage that caused trauma from situations which share common factors with a person's own traumas. So for genitally mutilated guys situations of non-circumcision type mutilation of their penis would most likely cause their subconscious protection protocols to drive them to not partake in damaging their penis which could explain in part why you see more intact guys damaging their penis.

[veryconfused]

Thankfully I wasn't circumcised at birth, and I can see how it can affect people mentally - even later in life. It may be a similar effect to PTSD, where someone suffers from a traumatic experience and experiences mental problems later on. I do seem to be more calm, open minded, and mentally stable than the high majority of people that I live around (about 80% are circumcised here, at least in the white community). This is all just mere speculation, and is probably a result of cultural influences as well as myriad of other factors that go into it, so this hypothesis doesn't hold much truth.

HOWEVER, despite all that, I think the human body has a remarkable resistance to this kind of trauma. Your nervous system is extremely decentralized, and even losing one part (or even several parts), the brain can still form new connections and adapt to lost tissue/nerves. It may even be that circumcision at birth (when your body has the most plasticity to its surroundings), would be less of a trauma than in adulthood.

Basically, who knows? There's not much way to tell, and it would be difficult to carry out any kind of legitimate studies to prove any of this. I think if circumcision truly had SEVERE consequences, it would be readily apparent because of how common it is and how many people have gone through this procedure. So I don't think it makes a huge difference, but it may make a minor difference. It would be best not to believe that circumcision harmed you mentally, because the placebo affect of believing it did damage would probably do more damage itself to you psychologically. Just my 2 cents on this. (I base this information on nothing)

[AnonL]

I think if circumcision truly had SEVERE consequences, it would be readily apparent because of how common it is and how many people have gone through this procedure. So I don't think it makes a huge difference, but it may make a minor difference. It would be best not to believe that circumcision harmed you mentally, because the placebo affect of believing it did damage would probably do more damage itself to you psychologically. Just my 2 cents on this. (I base this information on nothing)

I talked to my psychiatrist about trauma and she said it is dependent more on the individual than the objective severity of the event. She explained how some can survive war and come out fine, while others may go to pieces from an event that looks trifling to the outside observer. I agree that there is a point where attributing mental harm to circumcision becomes destructive, but for some of us, there is already a long history of psychological difficulties, and we are understandably searching for answers. Understanding the cause can help us find the solution, but most people instantly dismiss circumcision as a cause, or at the best give a doubtful "maybe", then drop the issue. There at least needs to be more investigation done. Meanwhile, no "placebo effect" is going to fuck my life up more than I've managed to for the past decade, while knowing nothing about circumcision.

[Science Monk]

There is a German-hosted web site (in English) devoted to the connection between early childhood emotional experience and later adult anti-social behavior.

THE ORIGINS OF PEACE AND VIOLENCE
Deprivation of Physical Affection as a Main Cause
of Depression, Aggression and Drug Abuse
http://www.violence.de/

David
World As Monkey Island

[AnonL]

There is a German-hosted web site (in English) devoted to the connection between early childhood emotional experience and later adult anti-social behavior.

THE ORIGINS OF PEACE AND VIOLENCE
Deprivation of Physical Affection as a Main Cause
of Depression, Aggression and Drug Abuse
http://www.violence.de/

David
World As Monkey Island

The main article on that site (http://www.violence.de/prescott/bulletin/article.html) was very interesting. He posits that somatosensory pleasure and violence are pretty much mutually exclusive. Fits right in with the discussion of circumcision, because not only is there the inflicting of pain on the sex organs, but life long deprivation of somatosensory pleasure. It gives legitimacy to restoration too, showing that it's not just some vain and narcissistic pursuit, but rather an attempt to meet a basic human need that was taken away. I cringe that many people seem to view restoration as being some sort of penis fetish. It's bad enough being cut, but to be humiliated for it on top of that is really unfair.

[Generic]

I suffered from moderate depression from late 2006-2008 and was put on Prozac from 2007-2008. I still suffer from slight depression. Now the question:
How do I know if that is even related to my circumcision? Isn't it impossible to tell?

How can we tell if the other physiological/psychological effects are due to infant circumcision when there are so many factors growing up (assuming the study is 100% conclusive)? :confused:

[prouly]

This is so true. Maybe another result of this is the fear of needles. Up until I was 12, I would go light headed followed by vomiting after getting any kind of shot. It seemed like a traumatic self-defense mechanism than anything else. Still to this day, whenever i see a needle, i cringe. But if it were a knife or anything sharp, I say bring it on.
I still wonder to this day, had I not been circumcised, would my body have reacted like this....

anyone else have an experience like this?
thanks.

[No144456]

not sure, but if anything it gave me a Resistance to pain, although I think I have
a pain intolerance, not only did I barely cry during my circumcision but I hardly cried at all, the first time I notice a intolerance was when I was 6 and my appendix blew, I didn't feel anything I just threw up and went back to bed. I've also had a surgery I woke up in, didn't hurt just felt weird. at around 15 I started cutting at my hands and body with butchers knifes because of my homosexual desires, I've also broken my nose three times, my shoulder twice and I am able to run miles until my asthma kicks in-if I didn't have asthma I could literally run and run

[cutitout27]

Do you ever try to imagine being cut as an infant? I find it near impossible to fathom what actually happened to me, and yet I see the evidence daily. I was born in the 70's before all the injections and all those topical numbing creams were around (not that it makes a huge difference). If you try to imagine that someone is scheduled to hold you down, and slice off your fingernails, how would that make you feel? Think about that. And it will be done without anesthesia. Your mind will reel if you try to realistically trick your brain into thinking that's something that could happen to you. That's a hypothetical. Now think about being new to the earth. Not knowing what's going to happen to you. Your just scooped up without a thought, and then your experiencing a pain beyond your limited imagination. It's absolutely horrific. Barbaric beyond reason. And we've normalized this procedure.

[AnonL]

Yeah I've often tried to imagine it (but kind of as a third person, because I'm too scared otherwise). I'm very much convinced that there must be psychological ramifications just like with PTSD. The main cause of the latter seems to be where a person is placed in a position of overwhelming powerlessness and horror... To me, that seems exactly what undergoing circumcision must be like.