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Curious
December 2nd, 2009, 14:29
Do you think there are personality traits that indicate if someone was cut as an infant?

If you interacted socially with say 100 dudes, half of whom were intact, half cut, do you think you could identify the cut ones with a much better than 50/50 ratio?

(And I mean clothed, ya sickos).

peterpink
December 2nd, 2009, 18:10
This is an interesting question. Some people have commented on the difference in behavior between USA men and European men. Others have suggested that circumcised men are less likely to trust others because of what happened to them after birth. Circumcision has been touted as a way to make men better fighters (and sportsmen) and yet others have used it to make men easier to control. These two reasons seem contradictory. There are no controlled studies. Because behavior seems to be up to 80% genetic, circumcision may only have a minor effect. It well may make sensitive babies/men more withdrawn.

I doubt that this research will ever be done. It would be difficult to eliminate all the variables to find a possible correlation.

Joseph
December 2nd, 2009, 20:01
Yeah, I have a hard time buying the idea that being circumcised amounts to a certain personality type. I think attempts to link circumcision to violence are a little over the top. I mean, yes circumcision is wrong, it's a violation of basic human rights, but aren't we going to some ridiculous lengths to vilify its evils?

Everything surrounding this conjecture is contradictory. I'm supposed to believe that circumcision makes a man "tougher," while at the same time, that it is this procedure intended to control him and make him more submissive.

I'm told that "violence breeds violence," that the US and a bunch of other nations that circumcise tend to wage the most wars and be the most violent. Circumcised men are supposed to be responsible for this nation's rape cases. Yet, a lot of my friends that I know for a fact are cut, are some of the coolest, easy-going guys I know. And then we have the other end of the spectrum, where some guys who were circumcised are extra sensitive, to the point of circumcision being a huge trigger to their depression.

I mean, what about countries like say, Mexico, where the men are known for their machismo? Circumcision isn't prevalent THERE. Look at the violent gangs in California where Latino teens kill each other in drive-by shootings. They can't ALL be lost circumcised souls, can they? Were the Germans of the Nazionalzotsialistisch all circumcised?

Taking a healthy, non-consenting individual and mutilating his organs is wrong. It should be stopped, doctors can't be performing it anymore than parents can be demanding it.

I say, let's just leave it at that.

Tally
December 2nd, 2009, 20:55
Circumcision has been touted as a way to make men better fighters (and sportsmen) and yet others have used it to make men easier to control. These two reasons seem contradictory.
These are not contradictory. Good fighters, as defined by most military organizations, are men who have been indoctrinated and are controlled by authority figures. When there is a war, soldiers do what they are told. A good soldier does what his CO tells him to. The same is true of athletes, except with a coach instead of a CO.

Joseph
December 2nd, 2009, 22:08
These are not contradictory. Good fighters, as defined by most military organizations, are men who have been indoctrinated and are controlled by authority figures. When there is a war, soldiers do what they are told. A good soldier does what his CO tells him to. The same is true of athletes, except with a coach instead of a CO.

Yes, but what instills this in them?

Is it their circumcisions, or their boot-camp training?

Some men were circumcised upon entering the military. This means that they were intact most of their lives. (Circumcision came AFTER the fact they joined.)

In another thread, someone has said that there were quite a lot of intact men in his military experience.

cobra
December 2nd, 2009, 23:11
I think there is a difference, but it is very subtle. It's nothing so over the top as men being more warlike or more easily controlled if they are circumcised. It is, in my opinion, simply a matter of the physical differences impacting behavior. I think intact men are more comfortable and this leads to a bit of ease in movements, a kind of relaxation and sensualness. Sex is better for them so they are more bonded with their sex partners, less likely to cheat or request kinky sexual acts (this HAS been demonstrated in surveys). I think they are more passionate sexually... there's a reason Latinos and Europeans have a reputation for being fiery in bed. There are differences, but these differences are in how intact men move their bodies and interact with intimate partners, their sexuality and machismo, and how they devote themselves to family and friends. It has been demonstrated in the few surveys I have seen in the past that cut men are more work oriented, more likely to cheat and engage in kinky sex acts, but not more violent.

z726
December 2nd, 2009, 23:23
I've heard of people being able to guess, though I would think it would be difficult to distinguish a man who was circumcised from one who had undergone other damaging physical or emotional pain.

Joseph
December 2nd, 2009, 23:32
I think intact men are more comfortable and this leads to a bit of ease in movements, a kind of relaxation and sensualness.

I hear something similar about circumcised men; that since they were exposed to pain at such an early age, their threshold to pain and sensitivity becomes much lower. (IE, they'll be least likely to notice if something's poked them, or if they've been cut by glass, if the water is hot, etc...)

Also, since circumcised men have been desensitized, they must work extra-hard to achieve sensitivity, making them "fiery" too.

I'd say some cut US guys have quite a lot of "machismo" too. Ever heard one argue how proud they are of their "superior circumcised members?" How they're so "over" their circumcisions?

Mexican men are known for being unfaithful dogs too, you know.

Circumcision may not have as much of an impact on people's personalities as some people may think, is all I'm saying.

In the end, whether it makes you a better or worse lover, would it make forcefully circumcising a child better/worse?

I just think it's secondary...

Quark
December 3rd, 2009, 09:11
Circumcised men are supposed to be responsible for this nation's rape cases.

There are plenty of predominantly-intact on that have higher or equal rates to that of the United States. We must also remember that these are based on reported cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

I'd like to point out that the United States does have the longest list of serial killers. Some think it's possible that circumcision is to blame, but then what there is countries such as Indonesia, the circumcision rate is still around 90% most of whom get forcefully circumcised when they're old enough to remember it, yet Indonesia only has one listed serial killer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_by_country

I hear something similar about circumcised men; that since they were exposed to pain at such an early age, their threshold to pain and sensitivity becomes much lower. (IE, they'll be least likely to notice if something's poked them, or if they've been cut by glass, if the water is hot, etc...)

I've read another thread about this. I'm not certain if circumcision has played a part in my sensitivity to certain types of pain, but many pain medications have no effect on me. Almost all paracetamol based pain relief contains 500mg of paracetamol. The recommended does is two tablets, 1000mg. I don't get any relief unless I have at least 1500mg plus 10mg of codeine.

Sorry, I've taken this thread off topic. I'm just trying to make a point that it is very plausible that pain is related to circumcision.

http://www.foreskin-restoration.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3068

Joseph
December 3rd, 2009, 09:50
Sorry, I've taken this thread off topic. I'm just trying to make a point that it is very plausible that pain is related to circumcision.


Interesting point.

I think this has actually been proven, and there was a news article a while back about this.

The question is, does this affect a circumcised man so much that it creates a certain recognizeable personality unique to circumcised men, enough to say "oh, I know he's cut because..." at first sight?

IMO, no.

People's personalities are all different; I disagree with the notion that there is such a thing as a "cut" personality.

What is it?

cobra
December 3rd, 2009, 09:57
Joseph, when your pain threshold is lower, you are more responsive to pain, not the opposite. And fiery is not dry humping something for 30 minutes without being able to cum, having to use nasty fantasies to stay hard, and having an unsatisfying orgasm at the end of all that athletic pounding. Finally, I have several Mexican friends and they do not strike me as cheating dogs. They are generally laid back, friendly and sentimental. Machismo is not about being cruel and it is not the typical American materialism of having the best job, biggest dick, finest ride and prettiest gal with the best giant knockers money can buy. Machismo is about virility, pride, bravery and gusto. The difference between circumcised Americans and intact Europeans...? American: "OMG, you're inside my bubble of private space! Eww! Get back!" European: "Com'ere you nasty wanker! Give your mate a hug!" Kisses mate on cheek when hugging, then slaps him silly with a big grin while still pawing him.

Quark
December 3rd, 2009, 10:23
The question is, does this affect a circumcised man so much that it creates a certain recognizeable personality unique to circumcised men, enough to say "oh, I know he's cut because..." at first sight?

IMO, no.

I'd say no also.

On the other hand a friend of mine would agree that I've been a complete ass at times due to my frustration at being circumcised. So yeah, it does affect a personality. Most here would say it has affected their personality and how they interact with others. But you MAY only be able to connect someones behavior to circumcision (if he feels negative about it) if you know that he is circumcised.

Joseph
December 3rd, 2009, 10:26
Joseph, when your pain threshold is lower, you are more responsive to pain, not the opposite.

Wasn't Ron the one saying that it takes him time to know the water is so hot it burns? (correct me if I'm wrong...)

Whatever the effect of circumcision may be, the question is still the same, does it show?


And fiery is not dry humping something for 30 minutes without being able to cum, having to use nasty fantasies to stay hard, and having an unsatisfying orgasm at the end of all that athletic pounding.

Believe me; I've seen some action on Xtube... this not the case for every cut guy...

Finally, I have several Mexican friends and they do not strike me as cheating dogs. They are generally laid back, friendly and sentimental.

Well, I have quite a few that I know for a fact are; they're divorced because other women have showed up demanding child support. The point I'm trying to make is that perhaps we're trying to put airs on being intact as pro-circs try to put airs on being circumcised. (Like when it is claimed that being circumcised makes you more likely to win a Nobel prize, a better athlete, etc...)

Machismo is not about being cruel and it is not the typical American materialism of having the best job, biggest dick, finest ride and prettiest gal with the best giant knockers money can buy. Machismo is about virility, pride, bravery and gusto.

The point I'm trying to make is that that "American materialism" exists in Mexico, perhaps more pronounced, and it has nothing to do with having or missing a foreskin.

The difference between circumcised Americans and intact Europeans...? American: "OMG, you're inside my bubble of private space! Eww! Get back!" European: "Com'ere you nasty wanker! Give your mate a hug!" Kisses mate on cheek when hugging, then slaps him silly with a big grin while still pawing him.

Never had this experience with my British mates, but OK...

These differences (assuming they're real... unless I'm seeing straight-laced homophobic Brits in my circle of friends); can we truly deduce that they are due to the difference in circumcision statuses? Or could it be that European culture may have outgrown prudish puritanism a long time ago?

Culture difference, or inherent traits of circumcised/intact men?

Joseph
December 3rd, 2009, 10:45
On the other hand a friend of mine would agree that I've been a complete ass at times due to my frustration at being circumcised. So yeah, it does affect a personality. Most here would say it has affected their personality and how they interact with others. But you MAY only be able to connect someones behavior to circumcision (if he feels negative about it) if you know that he is circumcised.

...

Dunno man, I've said it before. I've met quite a few well-adjusted cut guys who are cool and easy going, 5 of whom I convinced circumcising their children was a bad idea.

Quark
December 3rd, 2009, 10:53
Dunno man, I've said it before. I've met quite a few well-adjusted cut guys who are cool and easy going, 5 of whom I convinced circumcising their children was a bad idea.

It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens. But it is never gone. – Rose Kennedy

EDIT: Pasted it in case I change my signature at some point.

Joseph
December 3rd, 2009, 16:26
Sounds like Rose Kennedy was a bitter asshole...

Quark
December 3rd, 2009, 23:29
Sounds like Rose Kennedy was a bitter asshole...

This is of no relevance to her, but Joseph, maybe if you'd been circumcised you'd be bitter too.

I think the quote is highly relevant to the emotional pain that most here feel, not the physical.

Joseph
December 4th, 2009, 00:28
This is of no relevance to her, but Joseph, maybe if you'd been circumcised you'd be bitter too.

I think the quote is highly relevant to the emotional pain that most here feel, not the physical.

Maybe, and the quote may be relevant to the emotional pain people feel.

Still, it does not address the question; "Does it show?"

Bitterness and emotional pain.

Is that what we shall agree the "Circ'd Personality" is?

I resent that you must make note of my non-circumcision. Must one need be circumcised to experience emotional pain? Is bitterness limited to the circumcised?

I think the drive to which people want to place an "us and them" wedge between circumcised and intact men is getting to be a bit ridiculous.

The question persists. If there's such a thing as a "Circ'd Personality," what is it?

IMO, there isn't one. (EDIT)

Quark
December 4th, 2009, 00:53
The question is, does this affect a circumcised man so much that it creates a certain recognizeable personality unique to circumcised men, enough to say "oh, I know he's cut because..." at first sight?

IMO, no.

I'd say no also.

I've already agreed with you on this.

I resent that you must make note of my non-circumcision. Must one need be circumcised to experience emotional pain? Is bitterness limited to the circumcised?

And could it be that referring to Rose Kennedy as bitter asshole could be referring to me as a bitter asshole because of something that was done to me without my consent?

The point is, why would you be bitter about circumcision if you're not circumcised? And no, I don't think you're bitter.

Joseph
December 4th, 2009, 01:58
And could it be that referring to Rose Kennedy as bitter asshole could be referring to me as a bitter asshole because of something that was done to me without my consent?

The point is, why would you be bitter about circumcision if you're not circumcised? And no, I don't think you're bitter.

I'm sorry, I neither know who Rose Kennedy is, or what his/her problem was. From the snippet that you posted about him/her, that s/he was a bitter asshole is all that I could gather. I had absolutely no idea who s/he was and why you were quoting her, I merely thought you were trying to stay on topic.

I think you were expecting a little bit too much by posting that quote.

I still fail to see its relevance in this thread.

It seems, at least to me, that you were trying to imply that circumcision makes a man bitter. All circumcised men are bitter and in denial, this sets them apart, and this is immediately noticeable in his speech and mannerisms.

Were you trying to imply this? Or were you speaking for yourself?

*EDIT*

The point is, why would you be bitter about circumcision if you're not circumcised? And no, I don't think you're bitter.

Circumcision has made me bitter... even though I am not circumcised. I don't want to turn this into a "my bitterness is worse than your bitterness" contest now.

I really do hope we can stick to the topic: IMO, there is no one "circ'ed personality." Any personality type you name can apply to men of whatever circumcised status. Intact men can be just as callous and unfeeling as a circumcised men, and circumcised men can be every bit as loving and as sensual as intact men. Some men are bitter because they are circumcised, others are bitter because they weren't. I think we waste our time trying to create a "circumcised" stereotype. What for? So we can hate them and belittle them?

And it cuts both ways too. It is already said "uncircumcised men... are..

Dirtier.
Less adventurous in bed.
Disease-ridden.
Not as assertive."

etc., etc.

Someone mundane
December 4th, 2009, 02:47
I have to agree with Joseph on this...

The simple fact is that you can expect anything and everything whether good or bad out of human psychology across the board, regardless of circumstance. Circumcision may be able to influence a mans personality, that is if he ALLOWS it to. In our case, I think this is largely true in that sense, but you should be careful to keep the boundary in place for a proper distinction. I can attest to even knowing of an intact "man" who thinks he wasn't born with the right body and would get a sex change if he thought they were safer or more effective... :rolleyes:

What angers me more about all this is how people will try to grope for the trivial 1-ups around their cause. You say that the majority don't mind being cut, or never turn out to have bad feelings about it? Okay, but since when was THEIR opinion ever relevant to ME? That stands even when I am an infant you know. Nobody ever had the right to force their own ideal view of what kind of sex organs I should have on my own body. Saying that is just trying to minimize those who turn out to be unhappy in effect or make them seem like less of a problem involved. How else could you interpret that? I certainly can't see any other rationale behind why anybody would say crap like that.

I do think it is wisest to simply leave it at the fact that cutting newborns is wrong... When it comes down to it, those that are unhappy being uncut can always correct it and have their say in what style they wish for. An infant has no such choice, and you can't predict how the penis will develop and what the final outcome will be as a result. Further, he doesn't have as many doors open to him (yet) as the intact man if he turns out to hate it. On those grounds it only makes logical sense to leave what isn't broken well enough alone... A pity too many people obsess regardless and ignore that saying and the logic behind it. To believe that the male body is somehow born defective and needs correction is fundamentally retarded I think given that no other creature on earth suffers from "horrible foreskin syndrome" like we humans seem to. (Because it's self-imposed.)

And could it be that referring to Rose Kennedy as bitter asshole could be referring to me as a bitter asshole because of something that was done to me without my consent?

This doesn't need to become a personal matter either, I doubt Joseph ever meant to say it in such a way.

peterpink
December 4th, 2009, 03:02
Sounds like Rose Kennedy was a bitter asshole...

I am not an American, but I understand Rose Kennedy may have been John Fitzgerald Kennedy's mother. She may have been expressing how grief affected her after her son's assassination.

Quark
December 4th, 2009, 04:02
Circumcision may be able to influence a mans personality, that is if he ALLOWS it to. In our case, I think this is largely true in that sense, but you should be careful to keep the boundary in place for a proper distinction..

To make it clear again, I don't believe circumcision affects and infants personality, but as you say it can influence a mans (or should we say "adults") personality.

Our personalities are constantly changing as positive and negative experiences play out throughout out lives. For example, some people become more cynical if they have a number of negative experiences. That cynicism may ease over time but in many it can be a part of them forever.

I feel I should apologise for going somewhat off topic as the OP put forward the question from the perspective I've been able to talk to a stranger for five minutes and know if they're circumcised or not, in which case my opinion is no.

This doesn't need to become a personal matter either, I doubt Joseph ever meant to say it in such a way.

Neither Joseph or I have taken any offense. It was simply a misunderstanding.

I am not an American, but I understand Rose Kennedy may have been John Fitzgerald Kennedy's mother.

Correct.

She may have been expressing how grief affected her after her son's assassination.

Probably, but the quote could relate many things. Like many quotes, poetry, and writings from the likes of Shakespeare, the question isn't just "What did this mean to the writer?" but also "What does this mean to me?"

cobra
December 5th, 2009, 03:23
I cannot help maintaining my opinion that circumcision affects behavior. I think a few of you guys don't want to take off your rose colored glasses. There are several medically proven consequences of child circumcision, such as a lower pain threshold throughout life, interupted mother-child bonding, and there can be severe sexual consequences later in life. Admittedly, there is a difference between personality and behavior, and I really don't think I could meet someone and know in 5 minutes whether they were circumcised or not, but let's not kid ourselves. Any major trauma to the body is going to cause behavior changes... some of which may be observable. Removal of the prepuce is a major alteration of an important organ. Still, being a sexual organ, the main consequences are going to be sexual behavior, and if you go around having sex with men to test the theory, it's kind of a moot point because you will know whether he is cut or not as soon as he drops trou.

Someone mundane
December 5th, 2009, 07:26
I cannot help maintaining my opinion that circumcision affects behavior. I think a few of you guys don't want to take off your rose colored glasses. There are several medically proven consequences of child circumcision, such as a lower pain threshold throughout life, interupted mother-child bonding, and there can be severe sexual consequences later in life. Admittedly, there is a difference between personality and behavior, and I really don't think I could meet someone and know in 5 minutes whether they were circumcised or not, but let's not kid ourselves. Any major trauma to the body is going to cause behavior changes... some of which may be observable. Removal of the prepuce is a major alteration of an important organ. Still, being a sexual organ, the main consequences are going to be sexual behavior, and if you go around having sex with men to test the theory, it's kind of a moot point because you will know whether he is cut or not as soon as he drops trou.

Actually, no. In my case I am only stating that I do not believe it would weigh in as heavily as some intactivists like to make it seem. This goes for saying certain other things too. Such as purporting the myth that inner skin doesn't grow... And etc.

In truth I have no argument against your point where you think it would alter behavior, especially when it comes to sexuality. To me that is a no-brainer, but again I would only go so far as to say that it can INFLUENCE that behavior because there are simply so many variables at play. There are a lot of different kinds of people in the world, adding to that different styles of the cut they receive... Some could be with pain relief, others without. Plus I was never breast fed anyways so for me that's moot... Only bottle fed. (My mother was squeamish) Do you really think that there is a "one size fits all" generalization? Even in good, well documented research, I think there could always be exceptions. We are arrogant once we start to think we have all the answers. Isn't that what brought us to this circumcision backlash in the first place? Just saying to keep an open mind, here.

Not that it's necessarily related, but some even ENJOY pain, for example. I think there was also research on that one. That for some people the pain and pleasure centers of the brain can get a bit mixed up occasionally.

Cobra, I'm curious... Have you ever banged yourself real hard on something then proceeded to burst into laughter? Or is it purely an annoyance to you? I only ask because sometimes I've felt that way. There is supposed to be a chemical that the brain can release to make you feel good after you've experienced a physically hurtful event.

Despite all of that which I have said above, I would like to note that I still do agree with you on circumcision being a major alteration. But when you take into account all the variables, it really isn't so simple. (I'd say "clear cut" there but that would be a horrible pun.) That infant could develop in a number of ways... Further, here is another interesting question on those grounds: since the nervous system is still underdeveloped at that age, I wonder if some people cut in infancy might also gain an elevated response later in life towards that "pain relief" (for lack of better words, bear with me here) mechanism somehow. It's just a thought. I don't think any research has been done specifically on THAT one yet.