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1Taoist
April 9th, 2010, 18:27
I've noticed that at a particular spa I've been to (considered straight) that there are a) many gay men hangin out; and b) there are many straight guys hangin around gettin jerked off by them. This is obviously a lot of dick-play, but what's the difference between this brand of sexual DL and normal gay bath houses?

I've never seen any real sex happen, just the kind of tame shit that people cover up quickly when others are around, like jerk offs. Does anybody else ever see this sorta thing at other legit "spas"?

Joseph
April 9th, 2010, 22:17
Never been to a bathhouse in the states, but I'm currently living in Japan, and there are plenty of those here (onsen and sento - 温泉、銭湯).

People use the baths for what they're supposed to be used for; taking a relaxing soak.

What's more, people go in with their families, and at least in the men's side, fathers bring in their children, both boys and girls (it was weird to me be in a place where children could see everyone else's dick), so shit like that wouldn't fly.

Straight guys gettin' jerked off by gays? Hrm...

Wouldn't that make the "straights," as people in South Park would say, "a little gay" at least?" Or "a little bi?"

Which brings me to the question...

Tao, what were you doing there?

:rolleyes:

1Taoist
April 9th, 2010, 22:38
I told you, it's a straight Korean spa. Celebrities go there. Well-known actors. Old men. All types. Just happens to have this cruisin goin on that is pretty...how you say...on the down-low? I actually find that element everywhere- 24hr fitness, you name it -but what I'm pointing out is there are some very obviously gay men, and as you put it- bi's. But I suspect many are not in any particular category. What I mean is bi-sexual men are men who actually have sex with men. This kind of stuff seems to have a sort of bend to it that is...not on a very committed level. Nobody does anything openly, and there aren't rooms and porn videos playin and all that. This is a real spa.

I'm jealous of you bein in japan. I really could go for one of those soapy massages. You know what I mean? Wish they had that shit here.

cobra
April 10th, 2010, 13:35
Human beings are the horniest animals on the planet. We have all these artificial social constructs and religious rules and regulations that are supposed to keep us productive and RE-productive, but we are what we are.

It's best to behave in a way that doesn't harm ourselves or others-- married men shouldn't cheat, don't have unprotected sex-- but other than that, what's the harm in getting a handie?

Do you think God really stuck a dick between our legs and attached our overactive balls just to taunt us? Here you go... now don't touch it or you'll go to hell!

Give me a break.

The rules were made by the elite who simply wants to control our behavior. The same people who are quoting the laws are the first ones to break them. We should always strive to be responsible and conscientous of the consequences of our actions, but you'll be a happier person if you just let go of those rules and regulations.

Why live a life of frustration and unfulfilled desires?

The people who beat us over the head with their rules aren't. They're out at the S&M clubs, paying high-priced call girls for kinky sex and fucking their altar boys in the confession booths.

1Taoist
April 10th, 2010, 16:25
Nobody's talkin about fulfilling their desires to fuck alter boys or any other deviation. That shit isn't livin. But I get your point.

Joseph
April 10th, 2010, 19:16
It's best to behave in a way that doesn't harm ourselves or others-- married men shouldn't cheat, don't have unprotected sex-- but other than that, what's the harm in getting a handie?

For whatever reason, those are the rules... that they are what they are, do not blame the messenger...

Don't shoot him for ***'s sake!

:rolleyes:

cobra
April 10th, 2010, 21:43
I'm not saying you or anyone here has some kind of unfulfilled desire to soil the innocent. I said that the very people ranting the loudest about "family values" and "being a good Christian" are the very people going out and doing the nastiest things. I'm talking about hypocrites. In comparison to raping altar boys and spending tax money on s&m clubs, getting a handjob at the local spa is chump change.

I have been pretty open on this forum. I hope that honesty doesn't upset or offend anyone. I've seen and done some pretty crazy things.

I once went to an adult bookstore. As I was walking to a video booth-- just to watch a movie for a few minutes, nothing more, this was in the days before the internet-- I walked past an open door and there was a very straight-laced looking businessman in a suit and tie inside, standing with his legs spread open and his cock out, pissing all over the floor. He had this horrible, desperate look on his face. It actually scared me and I turned around and left. I'm pretty open minded, but I don't get into piss or crazy people. One other time, I was watching a movie in the booth and someone tried to get inside. He was shaking the knob, rattling the door. I knew what he wanted, but that was something I definitely didn't want. I just wanted to watch a porno. I don't do crazy things like have sex with strangers. That's how you catch diseases. So while I have a wild imagination, I am very conservative with my actions. You have to be.

Every now and then I will get on a health kick and go to the gym for awhile. I have never witnessed anything untoward in the gym. A few looks, but everyone has always been very well behaved there. If you're wondering if your spa is overly "gay" or just the norm, I would have to say... if it bothers you, try a different one. If it don't, keep going. You can't catch it like the flu.

The massage place I go to actually has a sign posted threatening to ban anyone who propositions the massage therapists. That just suggests to me that enough people do it to create a need for posted guidelines.

1Taoist
April 11th, 2010, 11:46
I get your point and now this discussion is getting good. I think many people have encountered these types of situations and the very visceral reaction I had to what you described is exactly what people should here. You made me disgusted, afraid, tense, and sad. These are not the rich people just "livin out their desires", or maybe it is...but either way it shines a light on the fact that sexuality really ISN'T that fun in reality- it chaotic, twisted (not in a good way), threatening, and unpredictable. It leaves you feeling like it definitely ain't worth it.

At this particular spa I sat in the steam room while a very well-known movie star jerked off in front of me. All the way to completion. And he shot out of there like he'd forgot his wallet sitting on the hood of his car. I laughed a little, feelin a bit like the devil cuz I sat there while this movie star defiled himself in front of me...but you know, when you view sexuality from a non-interactive perspective you see that it really is some sort of illusionary state that is sort of pitiful in those situations. Yet, real traditional sex can be boring. So I see why this happens. Or maybe it really is just cuz people are fuckin crazy.

I think the only reason I sat there- cuz there have been others I just got up and walked out on, that's my standard reaction -is cuz I recognized this guy from movies. It didn't go on for long, but I kept tryin to believe this was really him.

There have been a handful of other times that I've come into the steamroom and it's obvious something is goin on but they stop and cover up, which I don't care other than it makes me uncomfortable. In those instances I'm really a cock-blocker. I sit there lookin like the cop I look like and they just wait til I leave. It's actually lame, cuz these guys are all mostly lame. I don't know how chicks do it, really. Most guys are hideous, out of shape, and lame.

This spa is a good facility that is actually unique to LA. It's fine most of the time, cuz like I said anything that does go on is way discreet. Some gay guys walk around with their prince albert's and shaved cocks and what-not, but it's mostly cool. Like I've chatted in the sauna with one of the stars of CSI, and various other movie stars from my childhood, which is bizarre but cool.

I've a few times gotten pretty disgusted thinkin about the cum layin around that I might step in, which is fucked up, but that could be everywhere. I try not to think of that.

I have never been to adult bookstores for that very reason. And the ones you stated. That completely sucks. But it's also a bastion for it. That's what I think the bathouses in LA are. They aren't "spas". They are bastions of twisted sexuality, that's it. At least at this place there's some semblance of spa decor and any sexuality is kept heavily in check. I doubt that is the case at the bathouses. Anybody with experience feel free to weigh in.

At this particular place once, in the showers some black guy with a huge penis was strokin it and he was uncut. He was so big he really didn't stick out straight (pun), it mostly angled down. But his foreskin seemed to move really well. First time I'd ever seen that in person (a foreskin being masturbated), not that I really would have noticed before restoring, I think.

mewpokemon
April 11th, 2010, 12:55
Man... What _is_ this? Sexuality _shouldn't_ be so difficult and "twisted." You're missing the point, completely. Remember, this is why RMGM started in our countries, to make you feel guilty, ashamed and generally have difficulty with sex.

I just can't believe all the nasty shit I'm reading. I think you guys really need to let go of some shame and hate.

If you're not into it, don't watch. If you're watching, maybe you are into it and shouldn't be so tense about it. Sexuality is something to be explored, learned, experienced, achieved and lived. Its not about rules, other than the cardinal ones of no interference with another's mind or body. It is a fundamental part of humanity, as complex, rich, overwhelming and varied as you want to make it.

Why has it got to be about harm and obstruction all the time? Heal this damage.

Joseph
April 11th, 2010, 17:40
Yeah, reading this makes me sad too.

Whenever I go to an onsen with my friends, I think to myself "only in Japan."

Cuz I know about bathhouses in the states, and I know that they carry this connotation of being secret meeting places where adult men go for clandestine encounters. That there were a lot more, but were closed down because they were seen as AIDS cockroach hotels.

In Japan, you see men walking around, and no one cares to see each other. No one's covering up, because no one has this homophobia. I know that in the states, even at swimming pools and places like 24hr fitness centers, people are so homophobic as to cover up with a towel or go off in some stall to change. (Which is why I think the "lockerroom" myth to circumcise boys is completely bogus.)

You see men just enjoying a soak, or taking a shower. Men take showers on little stools next to each other, without being afraid the other guy might be gay or whatever.

Children, boys and girls, run around naked, and they don't seem to mind that they can see daddy's (and other men's) dicks. I know in America some uptight puritan might yell "traumatization!" But it's just so normal here, no one gives a damn.

I know that homosexuality exists everywhere in the world, but at least at the onsen/sento, the men restrain themselves.

These places are like a forbidden paradise for me, that you can only visit while you're in Japan but "you can't take with you" to the states. It makes me sad to think about what "bathhouse" implies in the US. And reading about how guys are jerkin' each other off, how it's a place where "straight" people go and get handjobs behind their wives' backs, how it's this place of sin, and you don't know if you might step and/or sit in cum makes me cringe.

The homosexuality/bi part of it doesn't bother me at all, no. It's just the very idea that it has to happen in secret at an establishment with a different kind of front.

This "fronting" exists in a different way in Japan, in the form of pachinko parlors. In Japan, gambling is "illegal." And at the pachinko parlors found everywhere in this country, you don't win money.

After you play and win crates of bearings (at pachinko parlors, the tokens are little metal ball bearings), you cash them in for "prizes" such as "collectors coins," pens, etc. Sounds innocent right? Well, just outside the pachinko parlor, at a booth not so far away, there is this little window where you can't see anything. The way it works is, you put your prizes, and this hand magically takes them and hands you some money; no one ever said you couldn't trade in your prizes for cash at a little booth not so far away...

:rolleyes:

No, I don't go to pachinko parlors, I just know the way it works.

Back to bathhouses though, I go there because when I do, I feel this strange sense of freedom. Back home, I feel the situation is so tense at changing rooms and situations where there's guys naked. It's like guys are so afraid they might be labeled gay, or that they might be being checked out by another guy. Every gesture must be made in such a way that you don't want to be messed with, and that you'll pound anyone that stares at you. Every move you make must be a manly, non-girly move. It seems some people would rather avoid it altogether and just go off to some stall to change or whatever. In Japan, nobody cares. No body covers up when changing, and guys just roam around free. In the complex, sometimes here are cleaning ladies, and though they are clad in work clothes, they are in the midst of naked men, and they just greet everyone as they do their job... "irasshaimase, irasshaimase!" (Wow... old ladies can see my dick... haaa!!!) After you start talking with the people you go, and maybe even to others (there are regulars), it's almost as if you forget people are naked.

This is all going to end once I have to move back... I'm not going to no place where I'm stepping in people's cum and there is hooking up and cheating going on... no way. That's no bathhouse, it's some sort of male brothel. I don't think there can ever be a true "spa" or "bathhouse" in the states in the truest sense of the word... I hear you might get that MAYBE at one of those health-spas where you pay 100 bucks a night... but then you still have to wear body-suits and it's hella expensive! I can walk outside of my apartment, and just a 5 min. bike-ride away there's a sento for like 400 yen. (four bucks)

Anyway, yeah.

I know what you mean, cobra. Those who protest the loudest about "family values" tend to be the ones that get caught at places like these. Didn't some married "conservative" politician get caught trying to cruise in a restroom? (I forget who it was...)

Tao, that sucks that you have to feel like a "cop" and a "cock-block." If you're ever out here you should really make it a point to visit a Japanese bathhouse. Nothing like that here...

cobra
April 12th, 2010, 01:16
That sounds just... nice. I would love to visit a Japanese bathhouse. Just to relax and partake of the freedom and maleness and all that shit.

I think the reason we get all twisted and weird with sex is because of the repression and social stigma.

Sex is such a powerful human force. Probably the most powerful, and all religion is is a way to tap that power and direct it into income. They don't care that you have sex, they just want you to feel guilty about it, cause then you are afraid of going to hell, so you spend more time and energy and money doing what they say, giving them their tithes, trying to atone. It's almost like some weird kind of pimp. They profit off guilt, just like Pepsi cola profits from thirst and video games profit from adrenaline.

Look as the muslims. Islam isn't about anything except controlling procreation. They keep their breeding stock in slavery, not even allowed in some areas to leave the house without an escort and a black sheet covering them from head to toe. Vagina is treated like a commodity.

Jews are obsessed with cleanliness and ritual mutilation. Their whole motive for circumcising is to drive a wedge between man and wife so they are more devoted to their religion. You can fuck, you just can't enjoy it.

Christians are obsessed with homosexuality and infidelity.

I just think American men wouldn't be so fucking weird about sex if there wasn't so much repression. I don't think the problem is even the sex. It's the repression. Watching someone beat off isn't going to harm you or the man who did the act in front of you. The conflict you feel isn't about the sexual act at all, but with what you think you're supposed to think about it.

What you did, Taoist, was a sexual act called voyuerism. It was, admit it, kind of exciting. But, shit, it was harmless. Stop obsessing about it. (Also, give us a hint who it was... I'm so fucking curious about that. PM and tell me if you don't want to make it public! I won't blab! It was Charlie Sheen wasn't it? That dude's a horndog! LOL!)

Anyhoo...

Joseph
April 12th, 2010, 01:42
I totally agree, cobra.

In the onsens of today, there are walls separating the men from the women. But there are older onsen in certain towns where there are still no walls in "communal" onsen. (混浴)

Rumor has it that the walls that exist in the bathhouses of Japanese society today are a product of Christian missionaries coming and trying to clothe the Japanese's nakedness.

I'm of the idea that perhaps we wouldn't be so uptight about sexuality were it not for age-old influence Judeo-Christianity has had on our culture. At least ostinsibly, men have to act macho, and as if they couldn't be caught dead looking at another man's groin. Meanwhile, they go off somewhere and pretend like it's OK for them (despite their self-imposed rules) and beat off together "as long as they're looking at lesbian porn." :rolleyes:

Yep... I myself haven't experienced this (I can't say I wouldn't have liked to), but heard rumors around the grapevine at church that some of the most "macho" guys sat around and jerked off to porn.

I guess you couldn't come right out and ask a guy if he wanted to jerk off with you, it just kind of had to "happen," and remain unconfirmed rumor.

Methinks that what happens at adult stores and spas such as the one Tao is describing are extreme situations like that, where "whatever happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas..."

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad, and men wouldn't be confined to cubicles at adult stores and spas if it were more acceptable for men to experiment with each other without all the stigma and fear of being labled fag or whatever...

It would be real nice if bathhouses (in the US) could be rid of that, and they became places where people actually came out and relaxed together, and they didn't have to use it as a rendezvous point for promiscuity.

(Again, nothing against homosexuality; I think I'd feel the exact same way, if not MORE STRONGLY opposed to naked heterosexual situations... I'd like to go to a nude beach to relax, not watch or be around others having sex...)

1Taoist
April 12th, 2010, 11:00
Cobra, that was the best post in a while. Smart, funny...thanks. Still laughin my ass off. And no, it wasn't CS, but that's a good guess.

And it wasn't...all that enjoyable. That's the only way I can describe it. Let's keep in mind that jerkin off in public like that (even though not exactly public, but a professional place) is literally against the law, so it was kinda like watching somebody commit a crime. Now I realize jerkin shouldn't be a crime...but the fact is it is, and let's admit there are good reasons for this being the case. We all like to dream of some mythical sexual universe that isn't maligned with all sorts of false negatives, but you yourself have said there are definite reasons for not lettin the dogs out.

I mean, it was sorta fascinating, but quickly not so, cu I'm not one to lose myself in illicit behavior. I'm very cognizant, too much so sometimes. I just know that the minute I let my smart head go I'm askin for the trap to close. Maybe it's just a nice jerk, is all. But when it comes down to it, people who do things like this lack the sense you do, cobra, and therein lies the problem. Where there is one illicit behavior, there is another. And it's kinda sad.

In theory things should be funner. But in reality, for those of us sane folks, it's just not as fun as we thought. Disease, law enforcement...who needs that?

In this case, it WAS harmless. But for many others it isn't cuz people are psycho. You can look all day after why there is this weirdness around sex, and I think all you'll find is PEOPLE are weird. They're FUCKIN weird. So fuck it.

Z-bop
April 14th, 2010, 12:21
First thing that comes to mind.... "Wear flip-flops". LOL. In a shared bathtub, i've stepped in a roommate's baby batter. Sure wished he would of washed it down. Gross... and I knew him. Freaks me out about being in water with a stranger's "little soldiers" floating around or having to worry about sitting in some.

But I have issues about possibly getting Athletes foot, staph, etc... So I keep away from communal places like that.

Gay... Straight... If another man wants to be jerked off by another man.... so be it. No big deal, who cares. In a public place, discretion is best. Would be nice to have a sign inside the establishment letting all who enter know that is is an gay / voyeuristic area.... just to keep the initial shock value lower to the un-expecting. Would be funny to watch how people react when walking into that kind of situation. :D

1Taoist
April 14th, 2010, 15:44
Massage places all love to put up signs sayin "No sexual massage", when that is the majority of what goes on. Matter of fact, any place that has a sign is doing so for law enforcement, not to discourage customers. If anything, it just makes gettin a handy a little more challenge. Funner when they say no.

I think that would be great. A sign on the steamroom that says "No-cum Zone". Below it will be written in tiny letters: rules subject to change.