How can he not want to restore?

[HopefulWifey]

Greetings, everyone!

I'm a young wife and mother of a 6.5 month old boy. Been married over 2 years now!

I started learning about intactivism shortly after my son was born (unfortunately...) when I discovered blogs and websites on natural/gentle parenting through my breastfeeding experience. It's only unfortunate, for my son, in that I found this information after he was born and not before. Before his birth, the limited info I had presented it as basically a cosmetic choice, neither harmful nor beneficial. I figured, what do I know about having a penis, and left the decision up to my husband. He is circ'ed and that is all he knows. I allowed my son to be circumcised when he was one day old. Knowing what I do now, I am heartbroken for my sweet boy and angry as hell that no one, not even my midwives, spoke up and told me the truth about circumcision. And angry at myself for not putting in the kind of thorough research about the decision as I have about every other parenting decision. Angry at myself for ignorantly allowing strangers to take my brand new little baby from me to assault, abuse, and rob him. Heartbroken that I can never take all of that back.

I certainly plan to apologize to my son when he is old enough to understand, and point him to information on restoring, should he wish to do so. Fortunately there were no complications and it healed well, leaving a decent amount of loose skin and a little bit of the frenulum. I'm hopeful that this will prevent significant problems in the future and ensure excellent and swift results with restoration if he decides to pursue that. In the mean time I use every other method of gentle parenting I can, nursing him, cuddling him close, and praying that God will heal the emotional damage it must have done to go through such agony with Mother nowhere to be found.

My husband is another story. He was circ'ed as a newborn and has never known anything else. He was upset when I shared the info I found with him and felt that explained why he struggles with a lack of sensitivity as well as premature ejaculation. His penis also curves significantly to one side, especially when erect. Intercourse is ok, but not amazing and far from my favorite sexual activity. I struggle with more soreness and dryness since I am breastfeeding, but even before, we have always used buckets of lube. He is the only man I have ever been with, and at first I thought intercourse would be such an amazing and intimate thing, the height of sexual intimacy, but now I find myself very much preferring oral stimulation because it feels so much better. I can only orgasm from oral stimulation or with a vibrator. In a way I'm thankful for the premature ejaculation because it's over quickly, usually in under a minute, which doesn't give me much time to get uncomfortable. At the same time, I know it decreases his pleasure and I don't like that at all.

But when I shared the information about restoring with him, he said it was interesting but not for him. That the way he is is all he knows and he doesn't see the need. I'm baffled. It's his penis, but it's also OUR sex life. He's a very sensitive and emotional guy and usually openly shares his thoughts and feelings with me, but has been very quiet about this. I'm sure he must be processing, or maybe he doesn't know what he thinks. I've given him some space and not brought it up again, but I don't want this to be the end of the story. I don't know, though. Should I press further? If so, how should I approach this?

I know he might be facing feelings of loss and frustration for the first time and I don't want to be insensitive. I don't want him to feel deficient or that he's failing me as a sexual partner at all, because he's truly a sensitive, attentive, and increasingly skilled lover. But I know we're missing out, and I'm feeling loss of my own about what I don't get to experience as the partner of a man who is cut. I'm disappointed and a little hurt that he's not interested in trying to regain some of what we have both lost. And a little jealous of my younger sister, who is marrying an intact man. They haven't had sex yet but no doubt she will be experiencing sex in a whole different way than I have. I adore my husband and don't ever want anyone other than him, but it hurts that his foreskin and everything that goes with it was taken not only from him but from US. It hurts that he's not interested in restoration. And I'm not sure what to do with that. I want to respect his feelings about his body, but at the same time, as married people who are One Flesh, our bodies are not simply our own anymore and we each have just as much say in our sexual relationship as the other.

Anyway, thanks for listening to me process and for having an open place like this to share!

[Shientienchi]

Guys have fragile egos *gasp*. Many guys are absolutely unwilling to admit that they have been wronged or violated in such a manner

[madbr3991]

HopefulWifey its good that you have seen through the circumcision veil. and its good that you want to help undo what has been done to your husband and son.

im sorry that this happened to you and your son and your husband. i hope your husband decides to restore and that your sun can restore.

[peterpink]

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It is a pity that more women did not have your level of compassion about the circumcision phenomenon. I cannot imagine what it would be like to carry the guilt of having told the doctor to mutilate the genitals of my helpless infant. Some have written about the grief of mothers in your situation. Marilyn Milos still gets very tearful when talking about her sons.

For a man to realize that his penis is inadequate is almost unbearable. From what you have said it appears that you are sensitive to his feelings. Give him time to process his thoughts and invite him to talk without pressure. After I found out at age 59 about the harm of neonatal circumcision I wanted to die. My wife was wonderful and said that whenever I wanted to talk about it she would listen. This was a great help.

Your husband has to deal with the fact that his parents and a doctor did this to him and he may be repressing anger. To force him into restoration could release his anger inappropriately. It is very difficult for men to express their emotions, since society says they should not have any.

Some men dismiss this whole thing as unimportant as it is too late to do anything, and just get on with their life. The situation is difficult for you, because you both are affected at the most intimate level. Your husband may change his mind as he losses his sensitivity (about age 40).

It you do not know it check out the O'Hara's book - Sex As Nature Intended It. See their website:
http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/

Give him time. Remember it is his body.

[PlainandTall]

Hey Hopeful- I just want to weigh in that I HATE the O'Hara book. Although I do agree with all the physical analysis of the damage to male and female sexual function caused by circumcision...(and my personal experience mirrors the observations) I don't agree with the conclusions or like the way the book is written. It's a fat book that could be pared down to the length of an article. The fact that she cheated on her husband- and then turns all of that back on his circumcision doesn't hold water for me at all. The fact that he underwent a very risky surgical restoration to save his marriage makes me feel queasy and I think the whole think sounds like emotional abuse. The book made my husband rage (against the book- not against circumcision)

[z726]

I know he might be facing feelings of loss and frustration for the first time and I don't want to be insensitive.

Are you sure? I'd imagine that the problems you describe that he has with his penis have frustrated him for quite a while now - and could very well be embarrassing for him. Perhaps that's why he's being quiet about the subject, or it could be that he's learned to live with these issues and doesn't want to talk about them.

Foreskin restoration is not a quick fix, as you've probably found from your research. Chances are it wouldn't alleviate the curve in his penis, unless it's due to very tight skin on one side… but if it is, he may want to look into expanding that skin. In the meantime, try different sexual positions.

Also keep in mind that you've done all this research and are looking at the subject from a completely different perspective than he is.

[RDaki]

I can relate! I've been going through many of the same feelings with my fiance for a while now. There is another thread on this forum that has petty much my whole story and the journey of me trying to get my man to restore. If you want to read it it might have some advice from some of the members on this forum that you might find helpful. You can read though my ups and downs in dealing with confronting him and encouraging him etc. It's been a long process and frustrating, but now he is doing the manual techniques and every little bit helps.

I know the whole situation is tough. Most men who do find out about how bad circumcision is find out through their own accord and not from their wives and girlfriends. It really must be rough for them to hear from us that sex is less then stellar because of something that was done to them.

In my case i had a similar sort of story as you in the sense that sex was just never awesome. He was cut too tightly and as a result I always got terrible chafing during sex...it was more uncomfortable then pleasurable. The only difference is that I had been with an uncut man so I do have that point of comparison which in many regards probably makes it worse, since i know what he and I are missing out on...

From one female to another, my advice to you is to be supportive of him. Encourage him to read a little bit about it. Explain to him how the foreskin is supposed to function and explain to him how his circ may have caused his penis to bend a little...but most importantly explain to him that it is important for YOU. I mean for my guy I really had to tell him that it would help bring back sensitivity and sensation, and i really had to stress that it was something that i really wanted him to try. Plus i showed him some posts from some guys who had reported a little extra girth and size from the new slack that they gained and since they no longer had tight skin the erection was able to expand to it's full size...

Also the other important thing to stress is that he does not need to wear a device... that with some manual tugging daily you can grow new skin! My man had very similar attitudes towards it as your husband and it took me more then 6 months to convince him. Throughout that time I had sooo many doubts if my relationship would make it because of the sex aspect alone. Ultimately i did not want to give up on a great guy just because of his penis. The fact that he eventually found the benefits of trying to restore outweigh anything else, just made me love him more. I know you are not at the point where you are questioning your relationship, but you do feel like you are missing out on something sexually, especially if you are a little jealous of people who get to marry intact men. I totally understand where you are coming from.

Over all I want you to know that you will have support here on this forum. I have found a great deal of good advice and plenty of people that understand my frustrations. Sometimes it is nice and healing just to be able to have a place to vent about your sex life since we don't get many opportunities in our everyday lives to open up about such intimate things and reveal issues that are sensitive and sometimes difficult to talk about.

If you have any questions specifically for a female going though something similar feel free to PM me. And i'm sure you will get some good advice from some of the restoring men on this site. :)

[peterpink]

Hey Hopeful- I just want to weigh in that I HATE the O'Hara book. Although I do agree with all the physical analysis of the damage to male and female sexual function caused by circumcision...(and my personal experience mirrors the observations) I don't agree with the conclusions or like the way the book is written. It's a fat book that could be pared down to the length of an article.

I agree. It needed fairly harsh editing. I suggested this book because it was written by a female and the husband writes of his experience - something that is unique to this book.

[4Foreskin]

HopefulWifey,
Congratulations on your healthy baby boy. I am sorry to hear about him getting cut without the doctors fully informing you of the consequences. If you feel strongly about it consider some type of legal action for failure to fully inform you of the negative effects of circumcision prior to getting your consent.

I can’t really offer any more advice on getting your husband to start resorting beyond what has already been offered by others.

Take care and good luck to you and your family,

[nuuu4]

There has been lots of good advice. As others have said, the male ego is very sensitive/delicate - especially regarding sexual performance and the adequacy of ones penis. You mentioned that your husband is an open and sensitive guy but is quiet about this and think he must be processing.

I think that is an accurate assessment - give him time to process. I know when I discovered the damage that circumcision did to me it took me a long time to fully accept it. I was very moody for several months. Everyone is different and has their own way of handling it. Some will completely deny circumcision has negatively affect them, others will admit that there are some limited negative affects while others will eventually face the reality of the situation. Most restorers fall into the latter group.

It will probably be helpful to try to continue to discuss it with him eventually. Just give him some time and then test the waters by dropping a hint that you would like to discuss it further when he is ready. When you do have conversations about it, obviously you need to handle it very delicately.

Good luck!

[Aspie]

Please try to keep in mind not only is he hearing from you that he's hurting you when you have sex and that he's inadequate he's also hearing that he hurt his son so he's taking multiple hard hits, give him time there is a good chance with a lot of love and support he'll come around.

Now since your obviously upset about your son being circumcised go to court if you win you can put the money you get in the bank and let your son have it when he is older perhaps he'll use it to undo the damage. Also if you go to court it will help another family not get stuck in your situation so if you win you'll help others as well :)

[HopefulWifey]

Thank you all for your comments and encouragement! I really appreciate all the perspective.

It's been a challenge to process and talk about my own feelings while also being sensitive to his. I've made it clear that I love HIM, the whole man, and I find nothing lacking in him because of his penis. It was abuse committed against him and not his fault. And he does a damn good job of pleasing me with what he's got...in fact his commitment to show me a good time in bed is amazing and very manly especially considering what he's missing! So I've tried to frame it as it's not that I'm displeased at all with his penis or what he has to offer, but rather that as a couple I want to pursue healing and discover all that's available to us sexually. I want him to experience his sexuality to the fullest extent possible, and I want the same for myself as well. I want it to come across not as a criticism of what he has now, but as hopeful for what we could both have in the future.

We talked some more and I told him that I felt disappointed and a little hurt that he had dismissed the idea of restoration out of hand, and wanted to know why he felt it wasn't for him. He sounded so heartbroken and said he just felt the damage was so bad, there couldn't possibly be hope for him. He was sure it just wouldn't work and he was going to be "damaged goods" for life. I shared with him what I had seen in the galleries here of guys that started out with very tight skin but had great success. That it would take time and effort but it's possible and I'll do everything I can to support him. He seemed more hopeful and agreed to take a closer look at the information!! I'm so excited!

He does have some mobility of the skin when erect and a few wrinkles when flaccid so I think he's actually got a fair bit to work with.

As for our son, we don't feel legal action is the right path for us and we can't afford that anyway. But I am thinking that I will compile as much information as I can and write a letter to my midwife and the doctor who performed the circ and tell them the impact this had on our family and ask that they inform their clients fully of all of the risks and harmful effects, and recommend against RIC. And I will surely not be silent about what I now know and will share it with anyone I know who is expecting!!

[nuuu4]

Excellent, glad to hear that he is coming around. Still take it easy and remember it is not an easy process. It is very slow, challenging and frustrating. But, in the end I really believe it is well worth it.

Again, good luck.

[photenman]

Hi HopefulWifey,

Two thoughts, the first is that you can buy a Your-Skin Cone from tlctugger.com for only $9. It fits over the head of the penis and in 2 weeks your husband will find the head turning from gray to rosy and become a lot more sensitive. So a small investment and effort, no device and a quick return of sensitivity which will help improve your sex life and show your husband that this all works. Even if he stopped there it would be an improvement.

The second comment is that it is great that your husband has some skin mobility even when erect and some wrinkles when flaccid, that gives him a good start if he decides to restore. I started out with no mobility 9 months ago. I think many here were "cut tight" so things could be worse. After using the TLC-X (bi-directional, fairly small, easy to use), I have a foreskin now that pulls to the end of the erect penis. The penis is more sensitive but the feeling is also very different from before, as the foreskin rolls and unfolds, exciting stretch receptors. The internal shaft is not supposed to be external or touched directly. The build-up is more gradual and orgasms stronger but also more satisfying and intimate. Somehow cut you feel kind of let down or disappointed or something after intercourse while with a foreskin there is more closeness. I think circ could account for a lot of disappointment in sexual relationships of couples in the U.S. where the divorce rate is high vs. Europe.

[z726]

He sounded so heartbroken and said he just felt the damage was so bad, there couldn't possibly be hope for him. He was sure it just wouldn't work and he was going to be "damaged goods" for life. I shared with him what I had seen in the galleries here of guys that started out with very tight skin but had great success. That it would take time and effort but it's possible and I'll do everything I can to support him. He seemed more hopeful and agreed to take a closer look at the information!! I'm so excited!

Yeah, even if the goods really are damaged, it's heartening to find out what's repairable. I know I was glad to find out how what I had could actually be improved, after years of thinking it couldn't… and was even more pleased when it did.

[AC_Tech85]

Greetings, everyone!

I'm a young wife and mother of a 6.5 month old boy. Been married over 2 years now!

I started learning about intactivism shortly after my son was born (unfortunately...) when I discovered blogs and websites on natural/gentle parenting through my breastfeeding experience. It's only unfortunate, for my son, in that I found this information after he was born and not before. Before his birth, the limited info I had presented it as basically a cosmetic choice, neither harmful nor beneficial. I figured, what do I know about having a penis, and left the decision up to my husband. He is circ'ed and that is all he knows. I allowed my son to be circumcised when he was one day old. Knowing what I do now, I am heartbroken for my sweet boy and angry as hell that no one, not even my midwives, spoke up and told me the truth about circumcision. And angry at myself for not putting in the kind of thorough research about the decision as I have about every other parenting decision. Angry at myself for ignorantly allowing strangers to take my brand new little baby from me to assault, abuse, and rob him. Heartbroken that I can never take all of that back.

I certainly plan to apologize to my son when he is old enough to understand, and point him to information on restoring, should he wish to do so. Fortunately there were no complications and it healed well, leaving a decent amount of loose skin and a little bit of the frenulum. I'm hopeful that this will prevent significant problems in the future and ensure excellent and swift results with restoration if he decides to pursue that. In the mean time I use every other method of gentle parenting I can, nursing him, cuddling him close, and praying that God will heal the emotional damage it must have done to go through such agony with Mother nowhere to be found.

My husband is another story. He was circ'ed as a newborn and has never known anything else. He was upset when I shared the info I found with him and felt that explained why he struggles with a lack of sensitivity as well as premature ejaculation. His penis also curves significantly to one side, especially when erect. Intercourse is ok, but not amazing and far from my favorite sexual activity. I struggle with more soreness and dryness since I am breastfeeding, but even before, we have always used buckets of lube. He is the only man I have ever been with, and at first I thought intercourse would be such an amazing and intimate thing, the height of sexual intimacy, but now I find myself very much preferring oral stimulation because it feels so much better. I can only orgasm from oral stimulation or with a vibrator. In a way I'm thankful for the premature ejaculation because it's over quickly, usually in under a minute, which doesn't give me much time to get uncomfortable. At the same time, I know it decreases his pleasure and I don't like that at all.

But when I shared the information about restoring with him, he said it was interesting but not for him. That the way he is is all he knows and he doesn't see the need. I'm baffled. It's his penis, but it's also OUR sex life. He's a very sensitive and emotional guy and usually openly shares his thoughts and feelings with me, but has been very quiet about this. I'm sure he must be processing, or maybe he doesn't know what he thinks. I've given him some space and not brought it up again, but I don't want this to be the end of the story. I don't know, though. Should I press further? If so, how should I approach this?

I know he might be facing feelings of loss and frustration for the first time and I don't want to be insensitive. I don't want him to feel deficient or that he's failing me as a sexual partner at all, because he's truly a sensitive, attentive, and increasingly skilled lover. But I know we're missing out, and I'm feeling loss of my own about what I don't get to experience as the partner of a man who is cut. I'm disappointed and a little hurt that he's not interested in trying to regain some of what we have both lost. And a little jealous of my younger sister, who is marrying an intact man. They haven't had sex yet but no doubt she will be experiencing sex in a whole different way than I have. I adore my husband and don't ever want anyone other than him, but it hurts that his foreskin and everything that goes with it was taken not only from him but from US. It hurts that he's not interested in restoration. And I'm not sure what to do with that. I want to respect his feelings about his body, but at the same time, as married people who are One Flesh, our bodies are not simply our own anymore and we each have just as much say in our sexual relationship as the other.

Anyway, thanks for listening to me process and for having an open place like this to share!

I am sorry you learned after the fact. I would pursue legal claims now. You have limited time because of the statute of limitations. His option by the time he is 18 might only be to sue you, as tort reform will probably take away his rights to sue the medical establishments. Set aside any settlement (if any) to a trust fund for him. Don't push your son into restoration if that isn't something he wants to do. As a cosmetic procedure, he may have opted for it anyway, negative consequences and all. Just apologize you took his choice out of the matter.

With regards to your husband issues:

How would you feel if one day your husband asked you for a breast enhancement or reduction? As you say, you two are One Flesh. Unfortunately this is not that great of a comparison, because you have the option of surgery and you don't have to attach a device to your penis.

Sure, he could opt for surgery. IF he meets the psychological/physiological requirements of surgery he still faces VERY grave risk of complications. He could very well be the first one on the list for complete tissue regeneration of the entire penis. The risk he would face of losing his entire penis versus your small risk of breast loss is not comparable.

If he doesn't opt for surgery, he has to wear a device attached to his penis daily or manual exercises. He also has to deal with any potential anger at the world for wearing any device. I have trouble keeping mine on for this very fact. I am more angry at the world on days I wear the device. I have stopped using it for now. I am still curious about foregen's legitimacy.

It is his decision and it should only be your duty to support his decision. Suggesting he do it because sex could be better is a knock on him, which also has to effect him. I suggest you be there only to support and to not pressure him. Some men can have an understanding of what was lost, work through it, and not have to restore. Restoration is a commitment that not every man can handle. I am still trying to handle it, and it has been 6 1/2 years since I learned about my circ damage.

[Americut]

How would you feel if one day your husband asked you for a breast enhancement or reduction? As you say, you two are One Flesh. Unfortunately this is not that great of a comparison, because you have the option of surgery and you don't have to attach a device to your penis.

Not a great comparison? It's a lousy comparison, and hardly for your reasons.

We're talking about repairing an organ to improve sexual function and increase in sensory pleasure for both partners. An organ that was needlessly damaged. Breast enhancement is entirely aesthetic. Breast reduction is mostly done to relieve back pain or if they a burden, physically.

He also has to deal with any potential anger at the world for wearing any device. I have trouble keeping mine on for this very fact. I am more angry at the world on days I wear the device. I have stopped using it for now. I am still curious about foregen's legitimacy.

The world didn't circumcise us. Each of us has one doctor that did, and our parent's let them. Just a couple of unaware people. I've talked with my mom and it is as resolved as it can be. It took some doing. A lot. But now she understands and she directly said she agrees with me.

You should feel liberated when you tug, not angered. From what I've observed, most men feel good to be restoring, as they/we should. I know I feel better when I tug.


It is his decision and it should only be your duty to support his decision. Suggesting he do it because sex could be better is a knock on him, which also has to effect him. I suggest you be there only to support and to not pressure him. Some men can have an understanding of what was lost, work through it, and not have to restore. Restoration is a commitment that not every man can handle. I am still trying to handle it, and it has been 6 1/2 years since I learned about my circ damage.

Yeah, it's his decision to restore. And she's the one that made him aware that this decision even exists. I'd say her role has already surpassed being supportive. Look at RDaki. She had to work at getting her man to understand why this is the way to go. And he finally does, as she reports. Now they're on the right path and are going to experience something great together which will undoubtedly bring them closer.

Knock on him? Circumcised penis is bad in many ways and sex is a lot better with substantially mobile, supple tissue of an intact or (partially) restored penis. Reality bites. We ignore it, or restore. Understanding what is lost is one thing. Understanding what can be gained is more important, here. To avoid or move past feelings like this:


He sounded so heartbroken and said he just felt the damage was so bad, there couldn't possibly be hope for him. He was sure it just wouldn't work and he was going to be "damaged goods" for life



This is a delicate matter, I know. But I don't think the enlightened women which have circumcised partners should just sit back and pray that their men stumble upon the same information they have, concerning circumcision and restoration, or mention it once or twice and then just let it go because it "bothers him". Hell yeah it's a bother. That's why it's important to understand what restoration can do. And what communication can do. I talked to my mom, friends and most of all my fiancee, back when I was dealing with all of this. Doing so surely helped. Some people never know. Some ignore the facts and do nothing. Some are depressed forever. Not good. They need to know. They need to learn and should do what can be done about the situation, and hopefully find happiness somewhere in there.


Hopefulwifey,

I'm hopeful for you too, and glad to read your latest news. This may be my first reply to the thread, but I've been following it. Please do keep us updated.

[HopefulWifey]

AC, thanks for your thoughts.

We won't be pursuing legal action against a doctor who did what we asked. We (ignorantly) asked for our son to be circumcised. In fact, I was on the fence about it...I could have gone either way, and had I had better information, I would have objected to it, but I went with my husband's wishes. I have no doubt that if he had understood the issues, he would have said no. But that is not the doctor's fault. The only thing the doc did wrong was fail to educate himself and by extension, us. So we WILL be writing a letter to him strongly urging him to better educate himself and advise against circumcisions for his clients, or stop doing them altogether.

(Besides that, it would be several years before we can afford to take any legal action anyway. We barely make enough to eat as it is.)

Breasts and penises are apples and oranges. Or is that apples and bananas? :o My breasts function exactly the way they are supposed to and have never been altered. I'd consider a breast reconstruction if they had been seriously damaged in some way, and I know my husband would only make that suggestion out of concern for me, not simply for his own cosmetic preferences. Besides that, surgical alteration of my breasts could seriously alter their function. I breastfeed my son and will breastfeed any future children. Surgery of any kind on the breasts can damage milk ducts, remove milk ducts, or damage milk duct openings at the nipple, all of which can impair milk supply and adversely impact our children's valuable source of nutrition. So even if my husband was displeased with the appearance of my breasts (which he isn't, he thinks they have superpowers and affectionately thinks of the stretch marks as battle scars), he would just need to live with it until I am done nursing children. If at that point he still felt it was enough of an issue to spend thousands of dollars on elective surgery for breasts that are already completely natural and whole and will continue to age despite unnecessary surgery, I'd give it some thought.

On the other hand, I see foreskin restoration as more comparable to the surgery he just had a couple of months ago to repair his ear drum. Due to a birth defect and subsequent injury and infection, he only had about 1/3 of his natural ear drum remaining in one ear that was covered with scar tissue. He had significant hearing loss, could not go swimming, and suffered from chronic middle ear infections. The surgery to replace his ear drum has restored a great deal of hearing, he can enjoy swimming and splashing in the pool with us, and he no longer has infections or the migraine headaches that came as a result. It was a tough recovery, but it restored the normal form and function of his ear. That is what I would hope for from foreskin restoration. That he could regain as much of the normal form and function of his penis as possible.

I have no problem with the way my husband's penis looks. And I would still love the way it looks if it were restored. I like his penis because it's part of HIM, not because it's somehow inherently awesome in itself. I'm suggesting restoration because I think it would improve things for both of us, especially his enjoyment of sex. I know he suffers because of decreased sensitivity. It's also disappointing for him to orgasm after only 30 seconds of intercourse and not be able to control that very well. Sure, it would make things better for me, but at this point, intercourse comprises only about 5% of our sexual activity anyway. I think he stands to gain a LOT more than I do. Part of being One Flesh is that I have a sincere desire to see HIM experience as much pleasure as possible.

Now, if I had been a victim of FGM and had part of the opening of my vagina sewn shut, and my husband suggested I try some stretching exercises to widen the opening and make sex more comfortable for both of us, and it was known to have good to excellent results, I would do it. I would not take it as him being displeased with a core part of me or some kind of rejection. I would understand it as loving concern and a desire to turn back some of the terrible impact on both of us as a result of an injustice committed against me.

(Sidenote: when I say restoration, I'm referring to non-surgical restoration. I would not suggest another risky surgery with dubious results that could further damage his precious bits. If that were the only option, I would quite cheerfully live with swimming in buckets of lube for the rest of my life.)

Now, all I was really objecting to was him dismissing it out of hand without even looking into what it all entailed. If he looks at all the information and then decides that he's not willing to go to the effort necessary, then I will respect that, since I'm not the one that has to do the work. So far he's agreed to look into it and I'm more than happy with that.

[HopefulWifey]

Americut, we cross-posted. Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate the support!

Hopefully hubby will come to read here. I'm delighted to find that should he decide to post, he will find some excellent support!

[Aspie]

It doesn't matter if you were the ones who asked for the circumcision or not the fact is that because the doctor did not give you all the facts to make an informed decision he broke the law. Now just because your not loaded doesn't mean you can't get legal help from competent lawyers as there are a lot out there that would be more than willing to help you.

[Terato]

Hey Hopeful- I just want to weigh in that I HATE the O'Hara book. Although I do agree with all the physical analysis of the damage to male and female sexual function caused by circumcision...(and my personal experience mirrors the observations) I don't agree with the conclusions or like the way the book is written. It's a fat book that could be pared down to the length of an article. The fact that she cheated on her husband- and then turns all of that back on his circumcision doesn't hold water for me at all. The fact that he underwent a very risky surgical restoration to save his marriage makes me feel queasy and I think the whole think sounds like emotional abuse. The book made my husband rage (against the book- not against circumcision)

My problem with the O'Hara site (not necessarily the book -- haven't read that yet but was kinda turned off by the site so I'm not sure I want to, really) is severalfold:

1) The writing is just... terrible. Honestly, it sounds like prose from a dime-store romance novel, all the squishing, sighing, swooning, enrapturing... There's a way to write something poetically and then there's a way to write something so it reads like the literary equivalent of a truckload of rancid treacle. The latter is the O'Haras' description, sad to say.

2) I don't like how O'Hara does not or will not acknowledge that not all cut penises are the same and not all cut guys are the same sort of lover. I think she really overstates her case. She seems to assume that all guys are very tightly cut and have NO slack skin... whereas a guy like my bf can be cut and look almost like an uncut man. There's a difference, and part of the problem with circumcision being such a huge force in America is that people blithely assume that all cut penises look the same. Well, they don't, and O'Hara is just falling into that trap, albeit for a different reason.

I also don't like how she assumes that all marriages of women married to cut men will have horrible sex and falter because of the low quality of sex... again, I think she is right in saying that there may be a lessening of pleasure in sex when the man has been cut (which is probably true in most cases) but I think she is drastically overstating it and making cut men sound like uncaring, brutal beasts and uncut men like the perfect lovers, when such is not the case.

3) I thought her 'romantic story' which supposedly illustrated the difference between cut and uncut was a lot of hogwash and incredibly offensive, to boot. What happened to (I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a factual account of something that happened to her, or if it is fictional) the woman in that story -- the demonstration of how a cut penis thrusts, supposedly -- was not consensual sex, it was RAPE. That it was not presented as an act of rape, but was presented as the way that a circumcised man naturally thrusts, is incredibly dishonest and does a great disservice to the intactivist/restoration movement, IMHO.

And that's really how I feel about O'Hara's work. It was actually something of a setback to me when I was new to intactivism, because it all sounds so overblown. I hate to say that of someone in the movement, but I think it does a big disservice to that movement as a whole.

Maybe the book is better than the site (which is horribly designed, BTW, so there's another strike against it). But if what PlainandTall said was true, and her husband underwent a surgical restoration to try to save their marriage when she cheated on him with an uncut man... that makes it even worse, honestly. I can't support that.

[Terato]

'Kay, I'm double posting because every edit I do on my other post wipes out every single previous edit I've done on it! Arrrggh!

We won't be pursuing legal action against a doctor who did what we asked. We (ignorantly) asked for our son to be circumcised. In fact, I was on the fence about it...I could have gone either way, and had I had better information, I would have objected to it, but I went with my husband's wishes. I have no doubt that if he had understood the issues, he would have said no. But that is not the doctor's fault. The only thing the doc did wrong was fail to educate himself and by extension, us. So we WILL be writing a letter to him strongly urging him to better educate himself and advise against circumcisions for his clients, or stop doing them altogether.

I see what you mean, and I honestly applaud you for being so forgiving... I take it you and your hubby are Christians? :) I'm working at trying to forgive the guy who cut my boyfriend, and I think it will take a while.

I think you're maybe being a little too easy on the doctor though. A core responsibility of a physician is to follow the Hippocratic Oath and "first, do no harm." If recent medical studies and one's own common sense (millions upon millions of men around the world have foreskins and they aren't necessarily dropping dead or killing their wives/sexual partners en masse from having them) show that circumcision is not helpful and can actually harm a young patient, then why consent to do that surgery at all? He should have conscientiously objected to the procedure and then told you and your husband exactly why he was refusing to do it. Yes, people should educate themselves about health matters, but if the layperson is ignorant, then the doctor should be the more educated one in the room, and able to educate the layperson.

For the medical profession's (willful, I think) ignorance there is no justification, IMHO, and were I ever to write a letter to the man who cut my boyfriend, I would emphasize that in no uncertain terms -- that I felt he had lied to my boyfriend's mother and abused her trust in him just as surely as he violated my bf's body.

Part of being One Flesh is that I have a sincere desire to see HIM experience as much pleasure as possible.

That's exactly how I feel, too.

[admin]

1) The writing is just... terrible.

When you're a pioneer, you can be the best in the world at something for a while. Then some talented person to whom it had never occured to do what you did may indeed follow your lead.

[ctrclckws]

Pioneers can be the best in the world for awhile.

The Wright Brothers first plane had
no real fuselage.
pusher propellers
wing warping
a canard elevator.
a prone position for the pilot.

It didn't take long for all of those to be relegated to the dustbin as not necessarily the best way to design a plane, but it still flew.

O'Hara website reads like a sensational tabloid story and the book might not be a proper PhD dissertation. It you can read past the fluff, there are some good points.

Of course, it just echos what Maimonides wrote about circ. Cutting off the foreskin reduces the pleasure of sex.

And those people in the 1800's, "Prevent the sin of masturbation, cut your child"

Over the history of circ, there are always people looking for reasons to justify it. The more voices that are against it, the better. Different audiences may read and be impressed upon by different styles of communication.

Even Arthur C. Clarke, in the third sequel to 2001: A Space Odyssey (3001...?) had a scene regarding foreskin status. The woman is so freaked out when she sees the mutilated penis of the astronaut that HAL the computer ejected into space, that she effectively run screaming from the building.

The more ways the restoration / intactivist message gets out, the better.

[photenman]

In the old days when there was not much medical research, doctors did their best but sometimes got it wrong. E.g., circ'ed someone and cured a foot disease or something, so they thought it would cure that type of disease. But even then, it wouldn't take much circumcising to see that it didn't cure that foot or other disease. (It was thought to cure a ton of diseases including epilepsy and insanity.) So doctors messed up from the late 1800's. It was voodoo medicine from the start.

But today medicine is evidence based. And doctors are required to keep up with the evidence. They are required to fully inform patients. Especially if doctors think it's a great idea to take something natural and change it, the burden is on them to prove that it has wonderful benefits and causes no harm.

Whereas the pain of circ. is obvious to any doctor and recounted by the AMA and AAP which say use pain meds (even though they don't work). And the Sorrells study - which showed that circ. removes the most sensitive parts of the penis - is public knowledge that all doctors should be aware of. Plus it doesn't take a doctor to know that removing sensitive foreskin will impair sexual function, or to see that it completely destroys normal masturbation and intercourse.

The medical associations' policy writes that circ causes all types of harm (they just left out having the head of your penis burnt or cut off, and death), so doctors are required to know that.

So I say doctors are hot to circ and knowingly don't inform parents who get duped day in day out.

If the doctors lose lawsuits and go to jail, that's great. The sooner they go have to compensate victims and go to jail like they would do for female genital cutting, which is illegal under federal law, the sooner this barbaric practice will end.

[madbr3991]

photenman i agree the information that circumcision is completely harmful is out there. and doctors that preform circumcisions should know this info. there is definitely some underlining factor driving circumcision.

possible factors
religion
influence from Victorian era
peer pressure
money
denial

the majority of the US still thinks that sex is something to be ashamed of and once that changes...
when the majority of people realize that the foreskin is great for sex they will stop cutting it off.

as for not wanting to restore its hard to accept that you are sexually damaged.

[Terato]

When you're a pioneer, you can be the best in the world at something for a while. Then some talented person to whom it had never occured to do what you did may indeed follow your lead.

I don't even think it's that. Intactivism has been pioneered in books by others; the O'Haras are not the first. It's that her writing (at least what I saw of it on the site) is terrible, melodramatic purple prose that makes me want to dry-heave, her story about being raped by a circumcised boy and chalking that up to what "circumcised sex" feels like is incredibly insulting (take comfort in the fact that if you restore you're saving your partner from a lifetime of sex that feels like rape... wtf sort of message is that to give?), and the design of the site is just awfully amateurish as well.

[photenman]

Their site sexasnatureintendedit.com really showed me for the first time how damaging circ is to sex. And I think it has novel ideas, to me anyway, like the foreskin preventing loss of lubrication during intercourse, how intact men have shorter, gentler strokes, and the like.

So the site may have its flaws like very poor design/difficult to use frames, etc., but for educational content, I'd give it an A+.

[DPX1]

It you do not know it check out the O'Hara's book - Sex As Nature Intended It. See their website:
http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/

Give him time. Remember it is his body.

I read this book/website and while it made me a hardcore intactivist it was also one of the most depressing moments of my discovery.

I discovered it for myself, having already been informed of various types of circ damage and considering restoration. It got me restoring, because I was convinced I was going to hurt or otherwise be unable to satisfy my partner (I was a virgin at the time). I didn't need that push to get restoring, but I felt about a hundred times more crippled and angry about what happened to me. I can't imagine how I'd feel if my girlfriend showed it to me. It might be illogical but I would take it way harder from the girl I love then some stranger on the internet. Be extremely careful about sending the message "here is why you are biologically unable to satisfy me, you can never get it back, but you can maybe approximate it with this long and sometimes draining process". This may not be what you mean, but this is how many men could take this kind of criticism (maybe not the right word) from the women in their life.

I think it's much better to come to realize circ damage on one's own terms, and engage in restoration for personal improvement. To discover that someone crippled you is hard enough, but to have your partner be the one that shows you your penis is inadequate plays right on a primal male insecurity in the most devastating way.

People like doctors and "consenting" parents need to be informed, maybe need to have these painful revelations. If someone's not about to circ anyone else (or recommend it, etc.), I don't know if it's worth the emotional toll of discovering if they're not really suffering otherwise.

It's natural to want to push harder on people about our issue, but we have to remember that we're here to protect the innocent, not to make victims feel bad to raise awareness where it won't make a difference.

[AnonL]

I think it's much better to come to realize circ damage on one's own terms, and engage in restoration for personal improvement. To discover that someone crippled you is hard enough, but to have your partner be the one that shows you your penis is inadequate plays right on a primal male insecurity in the most devastating way.


I agree with this a lot. HopefulWifey, I admire your compassion and willingness to dig for the truth, but be wary that you may be giving your husband the unspoken message that he is inadequate. If you were my wife and I read your posts, I think I would feel guilty, insecure, and resentful. The unintended message sounds like "I love him, BUT there's this one thing...", and it happens to be a physical part of him that he doesn't believe he can change.

[TugNWear Wife]

I agree with this a lot. HopefulWifey, I admire your compassion and willingness to dig for the truth, but be wary that you may be giving your husband the unspoken message that he is inadequate. If you were my wife and I read your posts, I think I would feel guilty, insecure, and resentful. The unintended message sounds like "I love him, BUT there's this one thing...", and it happens to be a physical part of him that he doesn't believe he can change.

Lately,
I disagree...as a woman and a wife I read her post as "I love HIM!" there is no but in her comments, just heartful concern for her husband being as fulfilled as possible with his/their sex life!

HopefulWifey,
I'm sorry that you didn't have all the facts before circ'g your son. I find it very commendable that you are now doing the homework needed to help both your son and husband with where they're at right now. I am looking forward to hearing about your journey...as my husband has been restoring for 4+ yrs and it is a long road, Love him and encourage him...there is hope. I wish you all the best!

[AnonL]

Lately,
I disagree...as a woman and a wife I read her post as "I love HIM!" there is no but in her comments, just heartful concern for her husband being as fulfilled as possible with his/their sex life!


Fair enough, just saying how I would interpret it if it were my partner saying these things. As someone else said, learning for the first time that your penis is mutilated and sexually deficient is painful enough, but add to that hearing your partner's dissatisfaction with sex, about her jealousy for people she knows marrying in tact men...

He will surely feel angry over the circumcision itself, I just hope it doesn't get directed at her for choosing right now to to discuss with him her (or their mutual) dissatisfaction with sex. I can tell she loves him and doesn't want to hurt him, but sometimes we can do so unintentionally.

[ron1]

I am still waiting for this topic to end up on "The View". We here are voicing what America does not have the courage to discuss. This is an outrage beyond belief.

On a personal note, my parents have been married for 40 years. My Dad is Jewish...thus circd. They have not had sex for years. I wonder how much more pleasurable their marriage could be if he was restored/intact. They love each other deeply. However, they sleep in separate bedrooms and they are more friends than anything else. How many other couples are out there like this? How many couples throughout history? In different countries? Different time and places? What unnecessary destruction is caused by all of this...

It might be important to be selfish here. Say...I need these things and you don't provide them. SOmetimes Kid gloves don't work.

Best of luck.