another one gets away, but still a bright side

[alastroke]

last week my girlfriends sister had her baby boy. my girlfriend and i had discussed circumcision and i had educated her on the problems which she was completely unaware of like many people. well she told me over the weekend that her sister and brother in law had an argument over the procedure and unfortunatly he was cut.

the bright side of this is that her sister is a neonatal icu nurse and opposed the circ, not on moral or human rights grounds, but at least as a medical professional who has been taught that it is almost never a needed procedure and a sensless painful ordeal. this gives me some hope that the medical profession is slowly turning to common sense instead of habbit.

the reason she gave in is that they also have an adopted son one year older and he was cut and her husband is so {#$@!$$} his argument was that he should be like his brother and father. the brother argument is not a viable excuse, but could be understandable for someone who doesn't completely understand the damage done, but the looks of the father argument is definitely out of the line of reason. maybe i was sheltered but i dont ever recall seeing my dads penis long enough to notice!!

[fics]

disagree with you - TOTALLY not understandable. that this lady, opposing circ, gave into it - cant understand something like this.

sometimes i dont understand you folks over there - but i have read more stories like this on different sites.
no offense.

[Them Boots]

I have NEVER understood the whole "make him look like his dad or someone else" argument. Ok, let's REALLY make him look like his dad. Give him a pot belly, wrinkles, bald head, false teeth, and all the rest, and make sure you do it right away "so that he doesn't remember it."

[alastroke]

disagree with you - TOTALLY not understandable. that this lady, opposing circ, gave into it - cant understand something like this.

sometimes i dont understand you folks over there - but i have read more stories like this on different sites.
no offense.



no offense taken, however in this country which has been aclimated to thinking cirumcision is right for a number of reasons and has felt this way for over one hundred years its quite a step to get the medical profession and the public at large to see it as an unnecesary opperation. through campaigning for intactivism we slowly win over the pro circ folks to at least understanding why we want to end this and educate those who are indifferent to the practice to get them to conciously chose against cutting.

there is not an excuse for it, but in the context of the issue in the U.S. it is, in my eyes, understandable for folks to be misled or indifferent, not right, but understandable.

[fics]

still NOT to understand.
i dont want to get too much political-but is the us not always claiming to be the first country in the world with the best thinking people?
i have seen pict. on the net from newborns just being circed; then pics of penises of adults with major defects due to the surgery. myself being a nurse and a research coordinator now just cant imagine how a physician can do this surgery on such a small dick safely. skin still sticks to the glans!! how he can perform a nice cut and so on.

sorry guys - i dont really understand. its different if someone decides on his own, like stupid me.
just for your information: if there is no serious medical reason no health insurance in Germany will pay - i payed myself.

[gdom]

sorry guys - i dont really understand. its different if someone decides on his own, like stupid me.


We don't understand either... that's why we're here.

[ctrclckws]

Follow the MONEY.
There are economic benifits to doctors for the surgery, that why they do it.

If it were considered a cosmetic surgery operation, then most likely, it wouldn't be paid for by insurance and the number of operations will go down.
That's the only thing I think I might like about a government healthcare program.

[greg_b]

From my perspective, that argument, that he should be RIC because the father is and/or other siblings are, is totally illogical and against all the morale and legal guidelines we have in this country and most of the world.

The only reason it is compelling is because of subtle and not so subtle fear mongering tactics used by our society. The fear prevents people from looking at the decision thoughtfully and weighing the costs against the benefits. Instead they let the fear overwhelm thier decison making process. Fear is a powerful ally for those who want to push circumcsion.

Regards

[Mister.Barbecue]

I have NEVER understood the whole "make him look like his dad or someone else" argument. Ok, let's REALLY make him look like his dad. Give him a pot belly, wrinkles, bald head, false teeth, and all the rest, and make sure you do it right away "so that he doesn't remember it."

I agree that the "make him look like dad" argument is ridiculous but I think your counter-argument is really weak because it doesn't address the psychological state of the parent. Obviously they don't want their child to look old and fat, etc. So what are they concerned about?

Basically it seems too scary to them to explain to the child why they look different -- that it might upset the child, that they won't understand, and that they might see themselves as "different" especially if they live in a society where it is the predominant practice.
The obvious simple solution to this is just to take 2 minutes to thoughtfully explain to the child that they were born the natural way and they have everything they need, and that their dad was cut because they used to think it was a good thing but now they don't. Circumcising your infant to avoid having this conversation is really absurd and irresponsible parenting. Now this might be slightly more challenging if one of the kids is cut but I know some families like this and the kids are OK and life goes on. It's no justification to perpetuate harm on yet another child. It's just parental fear, which we all know is the ally of the circumciser.

I think also a father might feel inadequate if their son is uncircumcised and they are. "If it's good enough for me, why isn't it good enough for my boy?" Men probably don't want to face the idea that there might be something wrong with circumcision so cutting their sons helps keep them in denial.

Another good counter-argument to the "look like dad" argument is that it is reasonably likely that the child's grandfather is intact, since circumcision rates didn't really skyrocket until after the 1940s. Was it necessary to have the circumcised father look like his intact dad? No, and it didn't matter that one generation was different from another, so why should this new child then have to look like his father? Many fathers probably don't know what their own father's circumcision status is and just falsely assume he is cut.

[admin]

it seems too scary to them to explain to the child why they look different -- that it might upset the child, that they won't understand

There's a whole class of parents who have no idea how important it is to always tell the truth. They lie (because their parents lied to them) about Santa, The Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, and Baby Jebus, etc, and probably about Uncle Jack in prison and lesbian Aunt Hilary, and where babies come from. They made up some bullshit and said it when asked why the sky is blue. They're always worried about what they'll have to shield the kid from next and when their web of lies will unravel.

The truth is easy. Just relax and take a breath and answer the question, in simple staightforward language.

The reason the intact kid's penis looks different is that doctors can do AMAZING things for us when we're sick because they are always learning more and more about how the body works. Some doctors used to think it was best to remove the foreskin, but now they know it's better to leave it alone.

Without truth there is no trust.

[Dr. Ron]

I recently returned from the AAP Conference in San Francisco where I talked with dozens of pediatricians in an attempt to persuade them to abandon RIC. Many stated that they were personally opposed to RIC, but that many parents still wanted their sons circ'ed. The predominant reason for the request.....so the son's penis would look like the father's. Parents pretty much know that there is no medical necessity for the surgery, but the cosmetic appearance is still a very strong motivator for the practice.

I used some of the arguments I have found on this site with the doctors, and some were open to using these arguments with parents. Many, however, took the fallback position of simply doing what the parents want. When I pushed the doctors by asking what other body part they would remove from an infant if requested to do so by the parent, they got very defensive and said that it was an entirely different issue. Circumcision is a long-standing tradition and widely accepted as standard medical practice.

We need to keep working on changing the idea that a son's penis should match his father's. That seems to be the biggie.

[peterpink]

I recently returned from the AAP Conference in San Francisco where I talked with dozens of pediatricians in an attempt to persuade them to abandon RIC. May stated that they were personally opposed to RIC, but that many parents still wanted their sons circ'ed. The predominant reason for the request.....so the son's penis would look like the father's. Parents pretty much know that there is no medical necessity for the surgery, but the cosmetic appearance is still a very strong motivator for the practice.

I used some of the arguments I have found on this site with the doctors, and some were open to using these arguments with parents. Many, however, took the fallback position of simply doing what the parents want. When I pushed the doctors by asking what other body part they would remove from an infant if requested to do so by the parent, they got very defensive and said that it was an entirely different issue. Circumcision is a long-standing tradition and widely accepted as standard medical practice.

We need to keep working on changing the idea that a son's penis should match his father's. That seems to be the biggie.

I know time is short in such interviews, but you could add that the the reason that the father is so adamant that his son is cut is that he, the father, will not have to face the fact that he has an incomplete penis. Recall that sons do not always know their father's penile status. It is for the father's well being that the son must be cut.

Do you use material such as the Sorrels et al. paper? I think facts about the functions of the missing bits are hard to ignore.

'Circumcision is a long-standing tradition and widely accepted as standard medical practice.' - only in America! I would say 'medical malpractice'.

Thanks Dr. Ron for doing such an important job at the AAP conference.

[Dr. Ron]

I/we customized our comments to each doc we spoke with since they came with different levels of knowledge about the foreskin and commitment to circ'ing. We talked a lot about fine-touch-sensing nerve endings when discussing what is lost thru circumcision. There was pretty much universal ignorance about the function of the foreskin. The residents who attended were very interested in what we had to say about the foreskin since they were not taught about it in medical school.

Some doctors commented that they could not believe all the fuss about such a minor procedure. These were the ones I loved to take on. Their attitude is just the reason it has become such a big deal. The medical community has kept itself willfully ignorant about the foreskin so that doctors could continue to cut away without concern for the consequences of their mutilation. I pointed out to them that pregnant moms know much more about the foreskin than they do because the moms have taken the time to educate themselves thru internet research. That's the reason that the circ rate has dropped to 32.5% in the US. I further suggested that the AAP should be in the forefront, leading the movement away from RIC; but the AAP is, in fact, becoming an irrelevant back-water in the medical community since the patients know more than they do. They did not much like hearing that.

There were many pediatricians from outside the US in attendance at the conference. They were with us 100%. They cannot understand why the US continues to hang on to a procedure that developed countries throughout the world have abandoned.

[freddys]

The residents who attended were very interested in what we had to say about the foreskin since they were not taught about it in medical school.

Some doctors commented that they could not believe all the fuss about such a minor procedure. These were the ones I loved to take on. Their attitude is just the reason it has become such a big deal. The medical community has kept itself willfully ignorant about the foreskin so that doctors could continue to cut away without concern for the consequences of their mutilation.
There were many pediatricians from outside the US in attendance at the conference. They were with us 100%. They cannot understand why the US continues to hang on to a procedure that developed countries throughout the world have abandoned.

Hello Dr. Ron,
Thank you for attending the AAP conference, and especially for talking to pediatricians.
Obviously, medical schools have not yet changed the material taught. But the interns always seem open. Since they will soon be private practitioners, they should be targeted.
Best regards,
freddys.

[ctrclckws]

Regarding the look like dad argument.

My father once told me he was cut at the age of 8 years old.
This would have been in 1941 or 1942, given his birthdate, so it may be that WW II had something to do with it. His father did go to war.

Any way, I never saw his penis erect, that I can remember, but in its flaccid state, it was longer and thicker that my flaccid state. His skin did have some bunching up behind the corona of the glans. So I suspect he still had some skin mobility.

My penis, had a medium high tight cut. and before I started restoring, no bunching of the skin, no skin mobility. And even as an adult, did not look like what I remember about my dads.

My Cold flaccid state looked like a shrunken raisin, his might have had some glans coverage.

So did I look like my dad, NO!!!!

If neither of us had been cut, maybe I would have looked more like him, but we'll never know.

[Mister.Barbecue]

Regarding the look like dad argument.
[...]
So did I look like my dad, NO!!!!
If neither of us had been cut, maybe I would have looked more like him, but we'll never know.

This is a great point, ctrlckws. Obviously no one is concerned about dad & son being engaged in long penis-comparison sessions.

The "looks like dad" argument is really meaningless and if you boil it down, what it really translates to is "so that dad will feel better about his penis".

[Jupiter]

disagree with you - TOTALLY not understandable. that this lady, opposing circ, gave into it - cant understand something like this.

sometimes i dont understand you folks over there - but i have read more stories like this on different sites.
no offense.

Completely agree. I'm not married. And the person I do marry will know that if we ever have a boy, he will not be circumcised. And if it still comes up later, I'll take her to court. If that doesn't work, I'll make sure no one lays a hand on him when the time comes. If she still persisted, should wouldn't see the boy again till he was old enough to make the decision for himself.

People need to take a much harder stance on this.

[Dasher]

I agree, the "look like dad" argument is ridiculous. It's just a cover story for doing a dirty deed. And it's used by both doctors and pro-circ parents.

Pro-circ parents have a variety of reasons for wanting circumcision. Most parents know it's not necessary and not required medically. But they want to do it anyway, so they hide behind the "look like dad" cover story.

Doctors use the "look like dad" story to get off the hook, because they claim they only perform these medically-unnecessary circumcisions because of parental pressure. But doctors are hiding behind this phony reason too. There is no ethical excuse for amputating part of a newborn baby, no matter how circumcision-crazed the parents may be. Period.

You can't convince circumcision-crazed parents to leave their newborn baby boy intact. They are motivated by emotion, not fact. It's a battle you are guaranteed to lose. There are lots of excuses they can make up for having the boy circumcised, and a surprising number use the most lame-brained excuse of all, the "look like dad" con job.

But when you try to reason with circumcision-crazed parents/relatives, you're just wasting your breath. Their minds are closed. That's why they're having the kid circumcised to begin with.

[jdl_1138]

I'm tired of hearing the "I want my son to look like me" excuse for mutilating a baby. It's ridiculous. If the father had his foot shot off in Iraq would he insist that his son's foot be removed also?

Let the baby grow up and make his own decision, and if he becomes an adult and wants a circ, then he can have it done. Sure it will hurt, but not as much as not having as much sensation or sexual pleasure.