Goodbye Bible, Hello Nature!

[John G. Smith]

Thank goodness for the TLC Tugger; it really works!

[Joseph]

The bible also says you should stone adulterers, fornicators and homosexuals to death.

But at the same time, it also says "thou shalt not kill."

Hrm.

While Abraham is told to cut of his foreskin and to command "his seed" to do the same, while in the same book it is written "thou shalt not make any cuts on your body." Also "he who has his genitals cut off shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven." And so on, and so on...

[Obs122808]

Let’s not get too excited about kicking the Bible to the curb!

Some of the comments you make about "extreme interpretations" about things stated in the Bible are totally right on, but let’s not equate these interpretations of the Bible by specific groups as the true word of God. Just because the words "cut off the foreskin", quoting your posting not the Bible, is implied in the Bible in the old testament by Abraham - that doesn't mean that the Bible is wrong and not the true word of God.

Like anything from the Bible people always make the mistake of not putting things into CONTEXT. The ritual of circumcision was not intended as a declaration from God to have every man on earth circumcised at birth. It is a sign of the covenant by the Jews with God - as the chosen people.

In the New Testament Paul puts an end to circumcision implying that new followers of Jesus did not have to follow old laws and customs in order to be initiated into the faith. Uncircumcised Gentiles could become followers of Jesus as well as Jews. Let’s remember that everything stated in the Bible does have a context and that some statements/requirements as with the example of Abraham and circumcision of males refers ONLY to the covenant between God and the people of Israel not everyone in the world.

(This information has been verified with someone who has a Ph.D. in theology).

Just wanted to make sure we don't pass on personal opinions and ignorance to the masses who are sensitive about an issue.
We don't need circumcised males, who are angry at getting circumcised by Doctors and Parents, to take it out on the Bible. And yes, I am circumcised, male, Catholic Christian and was cut at the age of 17 - so I know what I’m missing – and it has nothing to do with what is stated in the Bible.

Jesus taught that those without sin should cast the first stone. A lot of what was written in the Old Testament was challenged by Jesus and corrected in the Gospels in the New Testament.
You can kind of look at Jesus as the Son of God and the Editor of the Old Testament. He came to set the record straight on how things should have been interpreted.

Just wanted to add another perspective and challenge the opinions stated - but this isn't the forum for that kind of discussion so...

Let's get back to supporting and helping each other on this site and not make it about political and religious opinions. Just a thought.

Obs122908

[cloud7]

the stories in the bible are just that, stories, it was written well after events happened and many stories were passed on from other cultures, If I remember correctly the great flood was originally an Egyptian tale. there were meetings about what should be included. I don't mean to stomp on anyone's religion but that's what historians have found.

[Joseph]

At this point, I think we are straying from the conversation.

At any rate, from an objective perspective (step outside the box), the bible is another compilation of "holy writings" that are subject to people's interpretations and changes from generation to generation, and from publication to publication, just like the Torah, the Koran, and any of the Sutras or Books of Changes etc.

As such "holy writings" can and will say exactly what religious leaders want them to say. If there a "one true" interpretation, would there not be more unified religions? Let's see, HOW many "Christian" sects exist? Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Russian Orthodox Catholics, Greed Orthodox, Anglicans, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Apostolics, Babtists, Southern Babtists, Mennonites, Snake Handlers and the list goes on? Oh, but they're all reading from the same text, are they not? So why is it not ONE church? Exactly. Because they all believe what they want anyway, despite what the bible says. And even IF the bible says one thing, they'll twist it to mean another. Or maybe add and/or release their own "version." (Let's see, there's the NIV, King James, Catholic, Jehova's Witnesses, The Book of Mormon...)

Christianity is not the exception. Zen Buddhism, Jodo Buddhism, Jodo Shinshu Buddhism, Soka Gakkai Buddhism (Nam Yo Ho Renge Kyo), Tibetan Buddhism, Indian Buddhism (India has branches within itself...)... Aren't the Sunnites and the Shi'ites at each other's throats even though they're both "Muslim?" Orthodox Judaism, Ultra Orthodox Judaism, Chasidic Judaism, reform Judaism...

There is a Jewish anthropologist by the name of Leonard Glick who disects the old testament thoroughly, and claims that circumcision is inconsistent with the rest of the text; that it's as if the passage of circumcision as a covenant between Abraham and god was suddenly grafted in place.

Read "Marked in Your Flesh." Good reading and insights as to how Jews live with themselves having mutilated their children.

In closing, I always think that whatever religion commands you to mutilate your children in the name of whatever is wrong, barbaric, and primitive. You have to be absolutely brainwashed to not see genital mutilation for what it is.

People can believe and dilude themselves however they want. People are free, after all.

I, for one however, cannot respect a culture/religion that basically celebrates the maiming of an innocent child. Sorry if my beliefs are "offensive" to some. But mutilating a child in the name of Allah, Adonai or Jesus is "offensive" to me. So there.

[John G. Smith]

Thank goodness for the TLC Tugger; it really works!

[Obs122808]

Let’s not get too excited about kicking the Bible to the curb!

Let's get back to supporting and helping each other ...

Obs122908


Everyone who has responded to this thread has valid points and from the varied perspectives everyone probably comes from varying religious beliefs and experiences. All the forms of writings be it the Bible, Koran, Torah...were written at different times, where knowledge of the body and the world were still evolving.

The ONE thing we all definitely have in common is the fact that we feel the foreskin should not be removed. It is part of the body - naturally - and if God created us in his image than it is perfect from the moment we are all born -- naked and intact.

So where do we go from here? We write the next chapter in human development and that includes acknowledging that the body is our temple and we need to respect it. It took centuries to get to this point where everyone thinks its natural to cut off a part of our body and not think twice about it. I hope it doesn't take that long to turn it around and do away with circumcision.

I think going the religious route and pointing out flaws in religious writings will never work because too many people are too stubborn and don't think for themselves. They accept blindly and don't challenge religious beliefs passed on to them. Half the time the ones teaching don't even know what is right. All we can do is pass on our thoughts about this procedure and hope others will listen. We start with our kids and family and eventually it will make a difference. Just look at how many people are part of this site and others like it. That is definitely encouraging and shows that times are changing.

Hopefully, we can put the religious side of this discussion to bed and consider where to go from here.

Ron has his site - so use the products.
We're all restoring (some of us) - so continue doing that.
If people want to wear shirts to support being intact than do it.
If you can convince a family member or friend not to circumcise than do it.

Who knows maybe Ron will be on prime time t.v. one day. That will be the day when we can say I contributed to the cause by doing my little part. I feel that we can do our part with those we know and not make it confrontational or about how religion is wrong - that always gets a negative response.

I hope I haven't offended - that was not my goal. I respect everyone's opinions even if they are different from mine. These differences are what make us all unique.

I just like to keep it simple.
Keep on restoring and pass on the experience and knowledge to others.

Obs122908

[John G. Smith]

Thank goodness for the TLC Tugger; it really works!

[Joseph]

HAH! "Doing the child a favor."

A favor WHO asks, mind you.

Self serving buffoons.

MGM is as bad as FGM.

If a parent can "choose" to circumcise their son, then they should also be able to "choose" to circumcise their daughter to "please god."

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=1000579069&blogID=317371456&Mytoken=CF64BD26-2DBF-4681-86824E3A0EB6F1CF67395102

[John G. Smith]

Thank goodness for the TLC Tugger; it really works!

[Joseph]

If I had grandparents like that I'd kick them to the curb.

It is people that believe in mutilating children that have screws loose.

Good thing you decided to walk away.

There is nothing sadder than a slave in love with his captor.

You're parent's job was to take care of you and protect you, and whatever job they did, good, or bad, it's DONE. FIRED.

Time to walk away.

Congrats man, live your own life, HOW you want it.

~Joseph

[John G. Smith]

Thank goodness for the TLC Tugger; it really works!

[Administrator]

MILLION DOLLAR FORESKIN

And when will be able to buy your bio with that title on Amazon.com ?

-Ron

[finman]

Quote by John G. Smith:
I have banned the bible from my household (threw the baby out with the bathwater!) based on four words that appear in it. These four words are not allowed in my house: "...cut off the foreskin..."

Those words must have been used by doctors in hospitals thousands of times to describe hospital circumcisions to parents (and men facing circumcision), which in the US outnumber religious circumcisions. Are you now going to ban your household from using doctors or hospitals?

[admin]

While Abraham is told to cut of his foreskin and to command "his seed" to do the same, while in the same book it is written "thou shalt not make any cuts on your body." Also "he who has his genitals cut off shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven." And so on, and so on...
The old testament also says later "Thou Shall Not Steal" which I think also contradicts chopping off body parts without the consent of the victim.

-Ron

[finman]

The New Testament of the Bible is strongly anti-circumcision, so on the basis of your own logic, should be kept in your household, John. Online there are explanations concerning the Old Testament.

If nature is your God, you will be sadly disappointed at the world, dreadful cancers, birth defects, the way animals attack each other, man's abuse of animals and each other...the list is endless.

[Fletch]

I hardly find the New Testament strongly anti-circ.

I realize it is open to interpretation, but my interpretation of the passages highlighted at:
http://tlctugger.com/FAQ-CHRISTIANITY.htm
is that that circumcision is not part of Christianity. 95% of the world's Christians don't circumcise. The Catholic Church officially forbids it:
http://tlctugger.com/FAQ-Catholicism.htm

-Ron

[greg_b]

Some interesting quotes I have found:

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
--Frank Lloyd Wright

I have too much respect for the idea of God to make it responsible
for such an absurd world.
--Georges Duhamel

So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of
intelligence.
--Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)


Regards

[1Taoist]

Jesus did not come to "set any record straight" or tell us how the Bible was "supposed to be interpreted". Nice try, but that logic is creative nonsense. How can we have a word of God that every few thousand years has to be "interpreted" because for the last few thousand everybody has gotten it wrong?

Oh, I get it- the foreskin job was only sposed to be a psyche. Jesus finally came along and said "I didn't mean LITERALLY wack off the foreskin, I meant wack off WITH the foreskin! For fux sake, you assholes don't understand anything."

And how bout pork? "I meant don't eat like a fuckin pig. Get it?"

And "a man shall not lay with another man?". I meant "don't just lay there, that's what our wives do!"

Somewhere...Jesus is weeping.

[1Taoist]

and John G, what you need more than overhang is a therapist. And to keep your mouth shut about restoring.

Why do people like to make this a frontline issue along with real family dysfunction? Not only is that a red herring for the comprehensive psychological abuses in families, it makes intactivism look like wacktivism.

[1Taoist]

Greg B, nice quote from Bertrand. It seems that intelligence is easily abused and is often the source of evil, as well as good. Even with the dumbest criminals, there is some sort of "intelligence" behind their plots, intelligence that is extremely dumb.

[greg_b]

Greg B, nice quote from Bertrand. It seems that intelligence is easily abused and is often the source of evil, as well as good. Even with the dumbest criminals, there is some sort of "intelligence" behind their plots, intelligence that is extremely dumb.

Thanks. I still think we have a long way to go to even understand what intelligence is....

[finman]

Great stuff on the blog Joseph - you so clearly win on every argument

[1Taoist]

Not even close. Yeah...let's beat up the grandparents. After all, they're bad, right? Stupid.

I love it when people post all this crap about their family bein so F'd but, of course, they're not. And people who buy into this psycho distortion. Yeah, to hell with them! You're right! Nothing could be further from the truth. Is this really a dysfunctional family support group?

I wish more people would look more askew at people who paint their family members poorly to total strangers on an Internet blog. We're here to support restoration, not kicking grandparents to the curb. For fux sake.

And it don't matter what somebody's grandparents think of foreskin or restoration. What matters is nobody here knows them and I'd bet this whole place anybody spewing and castigating their family has issues of their own, circumcision or no.

Pfft.

[NewGuy]

This whole arguement just affirms my hatred of all religions. Why are we following a fictional story book from 2000 years ago? All the things written and how they were written was decided by men, and how do people make decisions? Well to make a decision people use all the information they hold to make the best choice they can. So that means a human being, that by todays standards would be less intellegent then a 3rd grader in todays society and would practically be considered insane, is the type of person who wrote these stories. Besides that a lot of changes can happen in 2000 years and not by any godly being but by man, and man is corrupt. How do you know storys weren't altered, omitted, or created to shape each society throughout time to its needs and desires. One day some man high up in the religious oligarchy could have just gotten a circumcision and loved it cause now he doesn't get any sand in there and said to himself, this is great I'm gonna make all my religion do this too because I think its great and I know whats best, so he altered the text a little preached it all around and bam! Circumcision is practiced is his religion. You can't disproove that as much as I can't disproove god.

[finman]

This whole argument just affirms my hatred of all religions.
How many religions do you have knowledge of, then?
Why are we following...
I assume you are not
All the things written and how they were written was decided by men
If you take away religion, is not everything written and how it is written decided by men?
Well to make a decision people use all the information they hold to make the best choice they can
Well I have seen and probably made some pretty irrational decisions
less intelligent then a 3rd grader in today's society and would practically be considered insane
Why think they were less intelligent?
How do you know stories weren't altered, omitted, or created
This shows you know nothing about how faithfully the Bible was copied, or the accuracy of the historical data

[NewGuy]

Why think they were less intelligent?


They were from 2000 years ago, a time when they believed the earth was flat, and it was the center of the universe. They had no knowlegde of micro organisms, molecules and biology knowlegde lacked greatly. Maybe intellegence is a poor choice of words, so that they lacked vast amount of information descibes it better I suppose.


This shows you know nothing about how faithfully the Bible was copied, or the accuracy of the historical data

I don't have to know anything about it to know that not every man holds his morals as closely as maybe you do. Maybe one of the people who copied it was a megalomaniac and thought his ideas were the best and he wanted to implement them on all. You have no way of knowing this.

I read something recently actually about how historians discovered that during roman empire era there was a cardinal who may have cast out a bunch of gospels (there was something like 16 being circulated) and called them herecy because they did not reflect what he thought was the true nature of the religion. He also chose 4 because he of the 4 corners of the earth (the earth is round) and the directions of the winds.

[finman]

Yes but the more we study, the more we realise how little we understand. Nobody can describe precisely what happens in terms of chemistry and physiology what happens when someone has a thought or makes a decision. Nobody know what makes a micro-organism with the power of locomotion move in a particular direction.

[admin]

I read something recently actually about how historians discovered that during roman empire era there was a cardinal who may have cast out a bunch of gospels (there was something like 16 being circulated) and called them herecy
I saw recently on PBS how the story of Abraham existed for probably 1000 years without circumcision in it. This was a very scholarly take on the origins of scripture, not some dude like me raving.

Also, I just wanted you guys to know that the number of people asking me - as moderator - to purge their accounts from the forum has increased since this thread got going. I'm a fan of rational thought, but we need to express any disdain for superstitious ideas, not for our superstitious restoring brothers.

-Ron

[1Taoist]

Say what?

[Billybobbed]

Also, I just wanted you guys to know that the number of people asking me - as moderator - to purge their accounts from the forum has increased since this thread got going. I'm a fan of rational thought, but we need to express any disdain for superstitious ideas, not for our superstitious restoring brothers.

-Ron

I happen to be a Christian but I'm not that narrow minded to have my account purged. That's just plain stupid. They don't realize the wealth of information and help here. Each to his own.

[1Taoist]

Quitting a forum is gutless and a pussy attempt to reject what has rejected them. Get out of the kitchen. Run away. Break up. No matter where you go, there you are.

To get kicked OUT of a forum...now there's something worthwhile.

[NewGuy]

Its just fools that can't imagine a world where their precious ideals might be wrong and run away from people with other ideologies. People need to learn how to relax and be more accepting of the fact that not everyone thinks like them. So yea taoist I guess they're pussies.

[finman]

Yes NewGuy, it cuts both ways. Today what is taught as scientific fact is simply discarded tomorrow for another teaching and theories are constantly pushed as fact even though they do not fit the evidence and contradict established laws of physics. If you tell people something often enough and that it is 'orthodox' thinking, they will believe it, no matter how ridiculous.

Is it really so clever to shoot down someone else's beliefs as superstition to just replace it with your own superstition, calling it science or much less, nature. So which person has total knowledge?

[1Taoist]

Nobody does. Which is why The Fool card in Tarot is considered the highest card.

And gives the sneaky and uncomfortable suspicion that all this contradictory SUPERstition may actually be as close to the truth as we ever get.

Mankind seems to occupy just three regions of consciousness: 1) the plain stupid; 2) the functionally stupid; 3) and the obnoxiously fucking stupid.

The first being those who don't know they don't know, the second those who know they don't know, and the last being those remarkable people who tell everybody they know what isn't knowable.

[finman]

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
—Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld