Doctors training

[Superdad25]

The thing I really don't understand is WHY don't doctors voice their opinions on circumcision.. I have read many articles and postings online from doctors and nurses that state they are against circumcision.

For other medical procedures doctors are happy to share their opinion - but for circumcision (infant) you are really on your own most of the time. Rarely do I hear a story where someone didn't circumcise their son because the doctor didn't recommend it.

Doctors know more about anatomy than most parents, I really don't understand why they aren't more against this procedure. Unlike some others, I really doubt it has anything to do with the money.

Most of the doctors that I have seen questioned about this, didn't say they were doing it because they thought it was beneficial, they stated that they were following the parents wishes. And some even seemed confused as to why so many parents choose circumcision.

I know from experience it is because of poor parental education.

I'm very educated, but I've never been told in a textbook anything about the foreskins purpose, or how many nerve endings are in it. This is a tragedy, I took sex education in a us school - they should have included a section on it. All the textbooks I've seen on human anatomy in the US DONT even include the foreskin on any diagrams... I mean just try to find any innervation maps of the foreskin - there are none on the internet, anywhere.

Also, the most common handout on circumcision is one from the AAP which totally downplays any sexual side effects of circumcision. It lists loss of sexual sensation as a "risk". Normally you would assume a risk is some calculated thing that happens to a small percentage of people that undergo the operation - not EVERYONE. Loss of sexual sensation needs to be documented as a definitive outcome of circumcision on those damn information sheets.

[admin]

It's all so mental.

Since when is a doctor obligated to do anything the patient doesn't need? Just say no.

[Joseph]

There are wires coming from the doctor's head you see.

Parents are given this remote control with which they have the power to make doctors do absolutely EVERYTHING.

Except for NOT!!!



Totally agree. Doctors aren't idiots. They know whether any other procedure is needed or not.

Except for this.

12 years in med school and they don't know?

Oh, but they're so eager to strap the kid down and get it done.

This is just NOT going to stop until people sue.

THEN the doctors 'll know for sure, I'd bet.

[greg_b]

Docotrs are human. Humans are not always rational. they can be strongly driven by fear, propoganda, peer pressure, and misinformation. Decision making is not easy to do. These and many other reasons have created this "Alice in Wonderland"-style insane situation, I think.

Regards

[peterpink]

Originally Posted by Superdad25

Doctors know more about anatomy than most parents, I really don't understand why they aren't more against this procedure. Unlike some others, I really doubt it has anything to do with the money.

I have quotes from doctors that demonstrate it is often about money.My favourite quote from 1969 is: 'one doctor openly admitted that on a Saturday morning in 3 hours he could make up to $80 in fees over and above the benefit for doing circumcisions.’

Originally Posted by Superdad25

Most of the doctors that I have seen questioned about this, didn't say they were doing it because they thought it was beneficial, they stated that they were following the parents wishes. And some even seemed confused as to why so many parents choose circumcision.

It is only in the case of circumcision that doctors take advice from parents about how they should proceed in amputating a healthy part of the body of a third party. Since doctors consider circumcision is a harmless and minor cosmetic surgery, they do not feel that what they are doing is ethically wrong. Some writers have suggested that doctors are of a particular personality type and their training means they must confirm to their seniors. This makes them more amenable to the whims of parents. Personally I find doctors very self opinionated and are fairly closed to alternative points of view. What they believe to be true follows the 'party line'.

While doctors may know circumcision is not beneficial, they also believe the lie that it is not harmful. Therefore circumcision will do no harm and there could be some (vague) benefits. This is due to ignorance.

Medical associations are loath to speak out strongly against their colleagues who still circumcise for fear of shaming them.

[Joseph]

Originally Posted by peterpink

While doctors may know circumcision is not beneficial, they also believe the lie that it is not harmful. Therefore circumcision will do no harm and there could be some (vague) benefits. This is due to ignorance.

"It's hard to get a man to understand something when his livelihood depends on not understanding..." ~??

With all that time they spent at med school, and all those important looking plaques hanging on their wall, it's hard to imagine doctors could be so clueless. They may be many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

Originally Posted by peterpink

Medical associations are loath to speak out strongly against their colleagues who still circumcise for fear of shaming them.

Isn't calling out fraudulent medical practice kind of the JOB of med associations?

I'm confused.

One would think that med associations existed to keep doctors in check, not the other way around.

[Tally]

Originally Posted by Joseph

One would think that med associations existed to keep doctors in check, not the other way around.

That is naive.

"Professional organizations exist to make themselves money by offering professionals tax deductable vacations." That is cynical, but probably closer to the truth. I have been a member of several professional organizations. None of them police the profession. That should be the job of the government, except that the government regulators have their hands in the pockets of the industry they are supposed to regulate. Oops. There I go again, being cynical.

[Superdad25]

How can they possibly think that is does NO harm when there are folks out there who say it has harmed them? I think these doctors are clueless (especially the female ones) because they never talk to any disgruntled patients. What are the chances of the ob/gyn's that perform these procedures these days ever seeing the children they did it to professionally when they are grown --- umm - they never do! There are no repercussions for these doctors if they screw up. WTF do they care, they could be sitting there watching movies on their ipod while they are cutting some kid with their other hand. Whats even worse, is that as support for circ dwindles (hopefully) the doctors doing circs will probably get worse at it, and the unlucky few that are still getting circd will be in much more danger of having things majorly screwed up.

[greg_b]

Definitely many doctors are clueless about foreskins.

But just because someone says it harmed them, does not make a compellng case. Harm needs to be defined, other factors need to be considered, etc. Not to say that all science is good, by any means, but anecdotal information is easy to dismiss.

The big problems that I see are:

Doctors and the medical community hide behind a false cloak of objectivity. They loudly and clearly talk about the benefits for some rare and minor diseases, take the protection against STDs out of context, and then they barely aknowledge the possibility and evidence that foreskin has high value.

The medical community has not kept up to date. And uses materials that lack accurate information about foreskins. No one can be expected to give good advice with improper education.

Doctors are human, so are irrationally swayed by their own fears and feelings about foreskins and circumcision. Enough that some go so far as to lie, take an advocacy role, do it behind parents abcks, and apply pressure on parents when the laws and guidelines say they should not.

But as to why....shrug. Hard to know all the reasons. Hard to know the key drivers. Answering that would require having open discussions with doctors. I do not think that will happen, except in isolated circumstances. Too much risk of liability and shaking up their paradigm. They are too vulnerable in a very real sense.

That is my perspective, anyway, for what it is worth.

[madbr3991]

concerning circumcision i think that there are about 3 types of doctors out there.

first group: these doctors consist of the worst. they either strongly insist or try to force you to circumcise your child. they will do it without your consent. or make a situation where circumcision might be your only option. or they might harass you by trying to make you sign the form. ( I've herd reports of doctors giving extra drugs during birth. making sure that you are messed up i mean seeing in cartoon vision messed up. and then asking you to sign the form). this group wont use pain killers

the second group: midway on the line. they might ask you but the most likely will wait for you to ask. the will tell you all the pro-circ stuff. they might tell you about the pain but they will downplay the pain. they however will accept your decision. this group might use pain killers

the third group: polar opposites of the first group. they will not ask for you to circumcise your child. if you ask them they will try everything they can to change you mind. if they cant change your mind they will most likely refuse and send you away. if forced to circumcise your child this group will use pain killers. and will try to reduce or eliminate the pain as much as possible.
it is unknown what causes a doctor to join whatever group he chooses. be it training, or his personal ethics, or something else whatever that factor it is. we need more of the third group and a LOT less of the first group.

what do you think of my breakdown?