Abortion

[Joseph]

I thought this story would be relevant to post here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-abortion.html

Abortion? Or infanticide?

You decide.

Maybe THIS is why some people insist on liquefying the "fetus" inside the mother's body... is it cuz once it's out and moving it's no longer a "fetus?" Well whatever. It's all a name game to me...

*EDIT* - Not trying to instigate anything, just showing why I feel the way I feel is all... Stayin' outta here for a while too.

[InnerLogic]

Sorry dude, we maybe took it too far.

No more arguing for me for a while!

[Joseph]

Hey. Point well taken.

I'll be the first to acknowledge that if it's an argument/debate that gets my blood flowing, it's abortion.

Peace to you, InnerLogic.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Joseph

it is inconsistent to be pro-circumcision on either side of the abortion debate.

Brilliant. When I'm at a circ protest there's always some asshole bringing up their pet issue (be it women's rights or fetal rights) on my dime, so to speak.

I think we need to never speak on behalf of "intactivists in general" about pro-life/pro-choice but rather just ask the intruding proponent of either position how allowing non-therapeutic foreskin amputation can possibly be justified within their rights framework.

-Ron

[ctrclckws]

Personal Opinion Only.

I do not like abortion. I can see some circumstances where it is probably justified as a solution.

I guess my stance would have to be pro-choice. Since I am male, I will never be pregnant, and will not have to make that choice.

[Borneo]

Umm.

On second thought, I should just stay out of this.

[Aspie]

For me I am pro-life however my views on abortion are atypical as

1.) I don't see abortions themselves as a religious issue because abortions are not new women have been having them for about as long as humans have been around and since God didn't speak up against them in any way in the bible then the big man must be cool with them.
2.) I think abortions to protect the life and quality of life of the mother are always acceptable as are abortions which involve terminating a baby or babies that have no chance of survival or the chances of the survival are miniscule.
3.) I believe that society needs to be more supportive of mothers so they don't feel they need to have abortions.
4.) I feel that the reasons why women have abortions needs to be addressed such as the fear of putting their child up for adoption by going and fixing the problems not the women.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Aspie

God didn't speak up against them in any way in the bible then the big man must be cool with them.

About this there can be no mistake.

The god of the old testament orders or carries out the killing of millions of unborn and newborn children.

DO NOT pretend this is not the case.

[Aspie]

Originally Posted by admin

About this there can be no mistake.

The god of the old testament orders or carries out the killing of millions of unborn and newborn children.

DO NOT pretend this is not the case.

I never said that the lord of the old testament didn't do so.

{mod: I just realized I sounded like I was scolding you; I was just adding to what you said. -Ron}

[1Taoist]

Some points on contradictions, as they pertain to life:

Arguing about "what is life?", actually has no technical definition. Just as death has none. These issues are only generally defined, and typically accepted as self-evident, but lacking literal definition.

Murder of a pregnant woman is considered double-homicide because it is the taking of a life AND a life in utero, which is expected to be carried to term, BY AN OUTSIDE FORCE. It is done so somewhat for the same reason a person on life support that is maliciously taken off and dies is considered murdered. Any outside act that results in the death of a life or expected life is considered homicide. This is complicated bybthe problem of if she decides to terminate but gets a doctor- an outside force -to do it, this defines the doctor as a murderer. This raises the question of Dr Kervorkian and right-to-die.

The reason the mother is not considered a murderer herself is because she is considered the bringer of life- the decider -and sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't, this amounts to the fact that there are just some things that are beyond our understanding. Any outside force that attempts to interrupt this is considered an infringement on this. The only reason we may intercede on this is if the woman is not considered capable of making any decision at all.
Not the "right" decision, but ANY decision. If she makes the decision to not bring forth life, then we must stand back from this. Mother nature does this ALL the time. Anyone experienced with child-birth and it's process knows something of it's mystery. We stand back in awe of what women do.

Many women may instinctively view circ as wrong but support abortion to some extent. But there are many levels to this. Many women have varying feelings about abortion as it pertains to varying circumstances. These feelings are part and parcel with their roles as life-bearers, as deciders. Some women say no, some say yes, and both at all different times. A woman may say no to sex, and if raped may say no to carrying the offspring. Or she may not. There is no one way or right way. There is only a decision.

Emotion plays a role. This is also the case with this topic's close cousin the death penalty. Most pro-DP people are against abortion. Most anti-DP people are for the right to choose. What I'm saying is women don't decide to "take life", they only decide to bring it forth or not. If the fetus is not capable on it's own, then it hasn't been brought forth. But even if it is but hasn't been born it still hasn't been brought forth. But once it's been born, her special role is complete: she brought it into this world. Now if she tries to take it out, she's a murderer like anyone else.

Circ doesn't make sense from female perspective because they brought this person in and the idea of cutting part of him out is unnatural. Men do this to their sons because it was done to them and is part of some worldly tradition. Mostly it's done out of ignorance and blindness. Abortions are mostly done for greatly personal reasons which have to do with real-life factors, mindset, and medical reasons that come from every woman's inherent capacity to bring life forward, however lacking or over-flowing.

Men have a say, too, and many men consider women who abort children murderers (especially if it's their own), but we in civilized nations must respect the role of the female and her body, as well as her ability to bring life or not to.

If someone outside interrupts that process, they are considered murderers of a life-to-be. If she interrupts it, her being the someone bringing it, then her being the chooser she must have that choice. And in some cases it's a bad one. Sometimes it's a sound one.

Circ is done to a life brought. By definition it is still dependent but is nonetheless here. A life dependent on THAT ONE WOMAN is different than a life that is dependent on simply any adult or society. It is not society's place to force the bringing of life, but more the maintenance of what's been brought. Have we heard of an eight-week fetus being moved into another woman's womb and brought to term? No. But we have heard of another woman's embryo implanted in another woman and brought to term. Will it be possible to transfer an unwanted fetus into another woman mid-term as a counter to abortion? That's a pretty big question for the future.

Many people believe nature should be the only bringer and taker of life. Yet, pro-lifers are always pro-DP and usually pro-war as well. Life is just a contradiction, and nowhere can you find consistency. Nowhere. Circ is the same. It doesn't make sense, but many people choose it and for all sorts of reasons, and even many here believe it should be a choice, just not imposed on infants who have no ability to make such choice. And even some who are given it will grow up to circumcise themselves, and for whatever reasons.

The bringing of life and the taking of it are extreme bookends of life's inherent contradictions.