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  #21  
Old April 1st, 2012
madbr3991's Avatar
madbr3991 madbr3991 is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by w.o.f. View Post
Universal healthcare would do away with precisely that: a for-profit medical industry inventing such "reasons" in order to prescribe unnecessary procedures.

Also, "medical benefits" have been claimed for circumcision since the times of John Harvey Kellogg. That's not only not recent, it happened at the very beginning of circumcision in the USA.

So, the current HIV tactic is neither "recent" nor "glitter". It's yet another in a long line of "medical reasons". Making up medical "arguments" has been the backbone of selling circumcision for over a hundred years.

Bottomline, universal healthcare is very likely the only thing that would be truly effective in reducing the number of circumcisions in the USA to at least European levels.
unfortunately universal health care does not quite work like that. it would simply be a basic medical insurance paid for and regulated by the government. people would still be allowed to get cosmetic surgeries like circumcision. and pay for them out of pocket. very few insurance plans cover circumcision. i doubt that government health would either.

yes removing funding for circumcision does lower the rate of circumcisions. it will not stop them.

and yes i am aware that the Medicalization of circumcision goes a long time back. most of the parents that circumcise now. do it either for "its cleaner" or "he should look like dad" or "insert reason here". very few will parents will claim they circumcise for "medical" reasons.
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  #22  
Old April 1st, 2012
intact intact is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

awareness is all that is needed. just like with fgm. ppl are aware and that takes care of that.
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  #23  
Old April 1st, 2012
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JimOZ6 JimOZ6 is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

Prior posts have mentioned the collective reduction of intelligence in the US. I agree. The continuation of RIC has similar causes to those who chant "keep your government hands off my medicare"; or those who believe there is no downside to the government printing more money; or those who believe that the plethora of frivolous lawsuits doesn't impact them; or those who refute evolution because their own children haven't mutated.

When I've challenged prospective parents about RIC they routinely respond "whatever the doctor says". With that sort of mindset, do we wonder why it continues?

Now, why it became the popular option package I believe is a throwback to Kellogg's anti masturbation drive. But there are so many parts of the history of circ that I believe it was a collective perfect storm that now has become so ubiquitous that stopping it is difficult.
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  #24  
Old April 1st, 2012
mark85 mark85 is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by madbr3991 View Post
unfortunately universal health care does not quite work like that. it would simply be a basic medical insurance paid for and regulated by the government. people would still be allowed to get cosmetic surgeries like circumcision. and pay for them out of pocket. very few insurance plans cover circumcision. i doubt that government health would either.

yes removing funding for circumcision does lower the rate of circumcisions. it will not stop them.

and yes i am aware that the Medicalization of circumcision goes a long time back. most of the parents that circumcise now. do it either for "its cleaner" or "he should look like dad" or "insert reason here". very few will parents will claim they circumcise for "medical" reasons.
And what's wrong with lowering the rate? You act like that's not a desired result. So it won't stop them completely? No kidding, the only thing that might do that is a nation-wide law and aggressive law enforcement, and even then there are some parents that are just going to take the risk and have it done behind closed doors, or out of the country. It's not exactly a realistic goalpost you're setting up there.

You're missing the point though, it's not merely about a lack of coverage, although that will help to lower it since people like free shit. The point about universal healthcare is that it would set up a centralized and consolidated nation-wide policy on circumcision. We are assuming that once things are about eliminating as much unnecessary care as possible, circumcision could be one of those eliminations. Wide sweeping policies like that are going to affect the medical community's views and attitudes on it over time.
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  #25  
Old April 1st, 2012
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Cajoboy Cajoboy is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

Universal healthcare excuse is just someone trying to inject their political views.

My brother and his wife were having a boy and she, rightly so, left the decision idea up to him as he is a male (I know what you are all thinking). ALL of his friends told him not to do that to his kid, but in the end he barely decided to do that to his son. Isn't it fucked up that we can say that the parent "decided" to mutilate their kid for NO reason. How the hell is that his decision in the first place? This really steams me up. I have gotten more and more militant about this. More than anything ever. As much as I oppose a lot of what San Francisco does, it actually had a point by trying to ban this horrible practice.
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  #26  
Old April 2nd, 2012
mark85 mark85 is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by Cajoboy View Post
Universal healthcare excuse is just someone trying to inject their political views.
Why don't you try actually making an argument instead of baseless accusations.
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  #27  
Old April 2nd, 2012
AC_Tech85 AC_Tech85 is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

Universal healthcare in the US won't stop or curb it. Cash for Clunkers meet Cash for Foreskins.
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  #28  
Old April 2nd, 2012
mark85 mark85 is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by AC_Tech85 View Post
Universal healthcare in the US won't stop or curb it. Cash for Clunkers meet Cash for Foreskins.
That wasn't necessarily what was said. What was said was that a lack of universal healthcare could be a reason why it has continued in the US while declined dramatically in other countries.
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  #29  
Old April 2nd, 2012
Kyle Kyle is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

The medical community is the root cause. The profit-driven medical system in the US gives doctors an incentive to take advantage of their patients. Doctors are in a position to both profit from, and promote circumcision - either by recommending it to patients, or by writing on-sided "scientific" papers promoting non-therapeutic infant circumcision. This is a huge conflict of interest.

By the AAP's own estimate, the surgery itself generated between $150,000,000 to $270,000,000 as of 1999. A quarter billion dollar market is valuable enough, but that figure is a conservative estimate. I've seen a recent estimate that it's worth far more than that - $1.75 billion. Take away the financial incentive for doctors by implementing a universal health care program, and circumcision rates should plummet (along with caesarean sections, labiaplasty, and other unnecessary interventions). That's not likely to happen in today's economic and political climate though.

Ignorance about the foreskin is another major reason why both doctors and parents force circumcision on infants. It's what leads people to evaluate circumcision differently from other non-therapeutic amputations. We would never evaluate forced mastectomies based only on the benefits vs. the risks of the procedure, without considering the functions of the breast itself, or the ethics involved with removing healthy, functional tissue, yet this exactly how most people evaluate circumcision.

Doctors are not educated about the foreskin, and many have been circumcised themselves, or have partners who are circumcised. I believe that this makes it easier for them to promote circumcision, because they genuinely see it as a beneficial intervention. Parents are also to guilty of this, but you can only fault them so much when they're bombarded by circumcision "benefits" in the media, and by their own doctors, who are supposed to be experts on the subject. Luckily, ignorance about the foreskin, and circumcision in general, is something that intactivists have the power to change.
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  #30  
Old April 3rd, 2012
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JimOZ6 JimOZ6 is offline
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Default Re: We need to know why it happened in the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark85 View Post
That wasn't necessarily what was said. What was said was that a lack of universal healthcare could be a reason why it has continued in the US while declined dramatically in other countries.
Mark, if you follow the money, you'll see that those who don't have insurance, or have restricted insurance usually do not get their boys cut because that represents an expense they usually can't afford.

Those with generous insurance are more often cut.

Universal healthcare "might" reduce it; but it really depends on how it is funded, and whether there is any progress. IMO, "circ for free" is the biggest cause....
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