Ethics of Religious Circumcision

[airpud]

Originally Posted by w.o.f.

Many people believing in something has never made it any more sensible...

During this era, the more people who believe it, the less true it's likely to be. "Many" by no means means "most".

Oh, the majority of Americans think circumcision is ok? Oh, ok - that's enough proof right there that cutting babies is wrong.

[airpud]

Originally Posted by w.o.f.

Every people has the government it deserves. Consequently, when looked at as a legal collective (i.e. nation), Americans don't deserve e.g. universal healthcare, or foreskins. This formulation just mirrors the cynical view the collective often takes with regard to individual suffering.

I like this wording. A legal collective. I think Americans* (well shitizens of the USA) are a legal collective, but NOT a true nation. This point is at the crux of this mutilation matter and at the crux of lots of fundamental problems in the USA.

What nation would mutilate itself? Anyway, circ is the karma that Americans get for being slaves to Israel. In a shtetel, the goyim slaves must be circumcised.

Ergo, the USA = The United Shtetels of America.

How much money do Americanz give to the Zionist Entity? Who has universal healthScare? Israel does. "Is-un-real" does.

Oh, wait. It appears the USA is part of the Zionist Entity.

* Sorry, but the term "Americans" really means all people of North and South America.

[airpud]

Since disrespect for religious views is not permitted here, I am now forced to say that circumcision is good.

Cutting babies reason X is bad but cutting them up in the name of religion is good.

Religion is good. Cutting penises is good.

It's all good!

Have a grrrreat day!

[airpud]

Originally Posted by w.o.f.

Nonsense. You can respectfully state your opinion or make a case for why religiously mandated circumcision nevertheless constitutes a human rights violation. "Respectful" means not taking a mocking tone or resorting to insults or threats etc etc.

If some member of a religous group then tries to silence such valid criticism by calling it "disrespectful", that's basically the same as playing the antisemitism card to silence valid criticism of Israel's quasi-military regime. Such literally bad-faithed distractions can and should of course be ignored.

And lastly, the final arbiter of that rule here on this website is not some abstract law and bureaucracy, it's Ron.

I disagree. Intactivism IS disrespect for (some) religious views. Simple. I, and I assume, we all, don't respect the religious view that young Jewish boys be subject to circumcision. As a collective, we don't respect that view. That's the way I understand it. Why should we respect those views anyway?

"They cut penises. It's part of their religion. We should respect that."

Mocking, insults, threats, etc. are completely reasonable I think. None of these even come close to mutilation.

[airpud]

Originally Posted by w.o.f.

And thus you keep being wrong...

Do not try to use all of your thesaurus words to impress us. Just use your normal active vocabulary and state your opinions clearly. And try to calm down a bit. This forum isn't for you to show off either your intellect or your vocabulary. You are some kind of word bully. Sorry, I'm not scared.

[swordofpeace]

Originally Posted by airpud

The question does in fact make sense. Let me tell you why.

Many more people believe in karma than you might think. If you use the words "deserve" or "should" - especially the word "deserve", then you believe in karma to some extent.

Every act is a karmic act. So if karma exists, then those withgout foreskins don't deserve them.

Karma literally means "action" in Sanskrit. Related to the word CReate. CR -KR.

KaRma - CReate

I think you are conflating two concepts. Karma could be used to mean consequence, causality, cause and effect. The way I like to think of it is
As you sow, you shall reap.

The second concept is Indian Hindu Metaphysics and cosmology, that we have souls that have reincarnated, and that if anyone suffers they must deserve it from a former life. What about all the prophets who suffered, what about Jesus. Did he deserve it? I believe in the principle of sowing and reaping but I also believe in victimhood, or martyrdom, and undeserved suffering, because I don't know where our souls came from and where the are going

[peterpink]

Respecting people is good. Permitting people to go on believing fallacious ideas (ideas for which there is no real evidence) without trying to set them right seems to me to be showing them disrespect. People can believe there are fairies, gods, angels, goblins, witches, unicorns, conspiracy theories, etc as long as their beliefs do not harm others. People who believe circumcision is harmless because they have been divinely inspired to do it are deluded and we should show them respect by pointing the harm out to them. If I was doing something that harmed other people I would hope people would show me respect by telling me about it. Unfortunately religious people are easily offended because their beliefs are not based on admissible evidence, but ultimately on feelings, hopes and desires - usually an attachment to the idea of surviving death. When holes in their beliefs are pointed out they can become very defensive and usually respond by playing the 'hurt card' so they do not need to listen to any challenges. Sometimes people need to be shocked to be awakened from their delusions, just as many men were here about circumcision harm.

[airpud]

[quote=swordofpeace;82880]I think you are conflating two concepts. Karma could be used to mean consequence, causality, cause and effect. The way I like to think of it is
As you sow, you shall reap.

---------------------------

Actually, I'm just saying that Karma (or cause and effect) basically means that the person got what they deserved. Some people don't believe in this.

Sometimes karma doesn't seem to make sense. "Why did this fetus get aborted? It hasn't sinned." etc etc. But if there are previous lives, then it makes sense. Not too different from the idea of original sin. So perhaps this suffering of "innocents" is the basis for the idea of original sin.

What goes around come around.
As you sow, you shall reap.
Karma.
To every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

These ideas at their core seem to be basically the same, especially the top three. No need to search for minute or semantic or linguistic arguments as for why they are different. They are basically the same. I'm not actually saying two things.

And I don't blame anyone for not believing in karma or in reincarnation.

[airpud]

Originally Posted by peterpink

People who believe circumcision is harmless because they have been divinely inspired to do it are deluded and we should show them respect...

Let me comment on this one for a second time:

Are you saying we should respect deluded people who harm us? I'm not looking for a flame war, but let me ask you - are you fully in charge of your mental faculties?

Are you truly aware of what you wrote?

[swordofpeace]

[quote=airpud;82956]

Originally Posted by swordofpeace

I think you are conflating two concepts. Karma could be used to mean consequence, causality, cause and effect. The way I like to think of it is
As you sow, you shall reap.

---------------------------

Actually, I'm just saying that Karma (or cause and effect) basically means that the person got what they deserved. Some people don't believe in this.

Sometimes karma doesn't seem to make sense. "Why did this fetus get aborted? It hasn't sinned." etc etc. But if there are previous lives, then it makes sense. Not too different from the idea of original sin. So perhaps this suffering of "innocents" is the basis for the idea of original sin.

What goes around come around.
As you sow, you shall reap.
Karma.
To every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

These ideas at their core seem to be basically the same, especially the top three. No need to search for minute or semantic or linguistic arguments as for why they are different. They are basically the same. I'm not actually saying two things.

And I don't blame anyone for not believing in karma or in reincarnation.

I understand what you mean. I believe we all get what's coming to us from here on out. I Believe in justice blended with mercy occasionally but then talking about past lives is a whole other thing. Also, Christianity teaches that an innocent man paid the sins of the world. Certainly he didn't 'deserve' this in your cosmology, even though he had lived before? Or the prophets who were stoned and murdered for the evil of others? No I believe in Karma I guess but only when the bill comes due. I believe in the present system of things, the meal is still being enjoyed and the full bill has not come due by a long shot. I hope there's justice because if there's no justice there's no meaning. Are you a hindu, hare Krishna, buddhist, taoist, jain? Why? Does having your beliefs mean you don't try to put a stop to circumcision? why or why not?