For everyone who has tearful breakdowns, let the world know by dropping a line in here...

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Manny

I will not let no one drag me down that way. No way ! I want to live life happy, I want to enjoy life and no freakin' circumcision is gonna stop me from being happy. Broadly speaking, if you wanna live your life miserable because you were circumcised, fine, it's up to you. But not me. And many other people here in this forum feel and think the same way as I do.

I don't think those that are blind, have no arms or legs were deliberately put in that situation under the name of "health". To my knowledge, society isn't allowing any other random cutting off of body parts, because it's mutilation. I find it very difficult to find happiness in a society that sees fit to allow this practice: calling it GM for women, and healthy circumcision for men. That is seriously fucked up. If you are free, able to move on and be "happy", good for you, but I only see a cruel and fascist society in which I have to share my life. I was offended by your original post too, which is why I didn't reply to it. I do however acknowledge it was not intentional, and you wanted to help.

[AnonL]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I don't think those that are blind, have no arms or legs were deliberately put in that situation under the name of "health". To my knowledge, society isn't allowing any other random cutting off of body parts, because it's mutilation. I find it very difficult to find happiness in a society that sees fit to allow this practice: calling it GM for women, and healthy circumcision for men. That is seriously fucked up. If you are free, able to move on and be "happy", good for you, but I only see a cruel and fascist society in which I have to share my life. I was offended by your original post too, which is why I didn't reply to it. I do however acknowledge it was not intentional, and you wanted to help.

Yes good point about the blind, deaf generally did not have that done to them and have their attackers walking around unpunished. It would be one thing to lose the foreskin in some sort of accident, but the fact that people are allowed to do this to children for money and it is perfectly legal is just appalling. Also people generally understand the disadvantage of losing sight or limb, but the circumcised penis is kept hidden away like a shameful secret that nobody will acknowledge.

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I don't think those that are blind, have no arms or legs were deliberately put in that situation under the name of "health". To my knowledge, society isn't allowing any other random cutting off of body parts, because it's mutilation. I find it very difficult to find happiness in a society that sees fit to allow this practice, calling it GM for woman, and healthy circumcision for men. That is seriously fucked up. If you are free, able to move on and be "happy", good for you, but I only see a cruel and fascist society in which I have to share my life. I was offended by your original post too, which is why I didn't reply to it. I do however acknowledge it was not intentional, but you wanted to help.

I'm sorry, but you guys just don't get it. It's not about if you were or weren't put deliberately under the butchers knife under the name of -health- or under the name of -religion-. It's not about all those things. What's done it's done. And we all know it's mutilation. Don't look for excuses or arguments that only turns all this debate into a vicious circle about blaming parents, about blaming doctors, society, etc.

You guys don't understand that you have to stop blaming who ever the hell you're blaming and instead look for personal healing, in the mind, in the heart and in the soul.

You guys really need to look in another positive direction. I don't care if my society is -fascist-, -capitalist-, "circumcision-ist" whatever !... that's not the point. The point is that you must find your own way to heal... and prevent this circumcision thing happens ever again...

Yes, I'm totally free and happy, very happy, now that I have realized what you guys haven't been able to realize: Life goes on, brother... Life has many good things to offer...It's only up to you, and no one else, to decide if you wanna live life happy or unhappy. Simple as that, but hard to understand...

If you only see cruelty, and don't want to see cruelty, then do something about it. Don't just complain. Do something about it. Take the first step. There's cruelty all around the world, every day, every minute, but I don't let that affect me. I do something positive about it. You find your own way to deal with that and come up with something positive.

If I offended your susceptibilities (which of course isn't the intention of any of my posts -that you got right-), then you must work hard on them and resolve them. Several years ago I also got offended by comments as this mine, but, later after realizing that I was the only one capable to be free and happy, from that moment on, I never felt offenden again by any comment regarding this issue. I'm over it. So must you.

Dudes, wake up ! Don't stay stuck in those negative states of minds !


Regards.

[Appalled Observer]

Originally Posted by Manny

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Yes, I do see people who are blind, people who are deaf, people with no legs, with no arms... and then I take a good freakin' look at my cut junk and thank God, Nature, the Universe (whatever) that I can see, that I can hear, that I have my both legs, my both arms to hug ! I'm fortunate ! I feel fortunate ! Can you understand what I'm trying to say here?!

Yes, I think I can see what you're saying. You feel fortunate, and consider yourself fortunate. But you seem to be saying that other people's pain (about the same atrocity) has no validity because you don't feel any.

If indeed you have fully understood why it happened, what made them do it and have forgiven them as a result, then fantastic. You are free to move on.
Personally, for me to fully understand what was done to me (something else), I'd have to have a video of what made my parents the way they were, so what they did to me would make absolute sense. Then I would understand what happened to me and naturally forgive them.

BUT! I don't have that video, they're both dead, I don't know exactly what happened to them to explain what they did to me, so i don't (CANNOT) forgive them for it. So I hate them for it. I have that right!

That doesn't mean I'm consumed by it, because I'm not. But when I'm in that place from time to time, I could happily take their heads off with a spade, or drag my dad (particularly) around the room with a boathook in his eyesocket. (think that's extreme? Human, function of powerless violation)

I'm moving forward however--at the speed my recovery dictates. Not your dictated speed, or anyone else's, including Sigmund Freud or anyone.

Other people's pain belongs to them. It should IMO be validated, not invalidated. If you Manny are moving past it because you've been able to understand and forgive, then great. However, if you've just swept it under the carpet then good luck--it's still there, whether you feel it or not, and it's affecting your quality of life (as buried pain does).

As far as I'm concerned, mentions (in lieu of empathy) of other, worse off unfortunates are suggestions to "Don't tell your pain to me, I don't want to hear it: can't you shove it up your arse or something?" (helpful suggestion?)

That's all for now, I could go on for a million years.

[Manny]

Originally Posted by Appalled Observer

Yes, I think I can see what you're saying. You feel fortunate, and consider yourself fortunate. But you seem to be saying that other people's pain (about the same atrocity) has no validity because you don't feel any.

Dude, I repeat again: I never said other people didn't have the right to feel angry, resentful, etc. and I never said their feelings didn't have no validity either. Of course their entitled to feel that way. Buuuuut, it's not valid to stay in that resentful and painful place forever. Eventually, they must move on. That's what is all about. About having the capacity to drop down all those negative feelings, about having the capacity to forgive and see that life is much more than, I'm sorry to say this bro, but it's the truth, hard raw truth, life is more than a foreskin. Life is more than having only one arm, more than having one eye, one leg... be thankful that you're alive and can do whatever you want with your life, positive things of course.

Several years ago of course I felt angry, decieved, resentful, blah, blah, blah... but then after giving things a lot of thinking (reading a lot about everything) I came to realize that I was living life unhappy, so, after a process of trying to let things go (it wasn't easy of course, you need to practice trying to be happy every day) one day I realized that I was wasting my life living in the past. So, I started to live happy in the present.

If indeed you have fully understood why it happened, what made them do it and have forgiven them as a result, then fantastic. You are free to move on. Personally, for me to fully understand what was done to me (something else), I'd have to have a video of what made my parents the way they were, so what they did to me would make absolute sense. Then I would understand what happened to me and naturally forgive them.

Everyone has different problems, not only circumcision is the problem, other problems invade our lives too and they are valid also. Sometimes you don't need to understand in detail why things happen. If that's a problem, then try to understand it, but don't crack your head over it. Just Forgive... and move on. There's no other way...

BUT! I don't have that video, they're both dead, I don't know exactly what happened to them to explain what they did to me, so i don't (CANNOT) forgive them for it. So I hate them for it. I have that right! That doesn't mean I'm consumed by it, because I'm not. But when I'm in that place from time to time, I could happily take their heads off with a spade, or drag my dad (particularly) around the room with a boathook in his eyesocket. (think that's extreme? Human, function of powerless violation)

I'm sorry you didn't have the chance to ask your folks why the hell they did something to you. I don't quite understand if you refer to your problem related to circumcision or something else. But it's the same thing. You need to forgive. And I'm sorry you cannot forgive them. And yeah, you have that right, I never said otherwise. See? That's the problem, you have bitterness, resentfulness... you haven't realized yet that there's no need for that. Taking their heads off with a spade... I'm sorry, but that's demented. You say you're not consumed by that problem, of course you are. I don't think that's extreme. I think that's someones murder fantasy of vengeance.

I'm moving forward however--at the speed my recovery dictates. Not your dictated speed, or anyone else's, including Sigmund Freud or anyone.

I never told -you- or anyone else to recover at the rate of my speed. You're kinda misinterpreting what I'm saying.

Other people's pain belongs to them. It should IMO be validated, not invalidated. If you Manny are moving past it because you've been able to understand and forgive, then great. However, if you've just swept it under the carpet then good luck--it's still there, whether you feel it or not, and it's affecting your quality of life (as buried pain does). As far as I'm concerned, mentions (in lieu of empathy) of other, worse off unfortunates are suggestions to "Don't tell your pain to me, I don't want to hear it: can't you shove it up your arse or something?" (helpful suggestion?)That's all for now, I could go on for a million years.

I'm not taking away peoples feelings. I'm freakin' tired of saying that I'm not invalidating their feelings, which again, they are entitled to have, but at one point people must move on. Yeap, I was capable to understand and forgive, like many other people too. You're not capable to understand and forgive? Then work on it. Every single human activity needs to be worked on. No, I didn't swept it under the carpet. I confronted my demons, dealt with them, analyze them... and at the end, I simply forgave all that, and moved on with my life. It's not worth wasting my time on things of the past. I have a lot to give to myself and to people and to my love ones.

Dude, I hear and understand what you're saying. I'm not saying that I don't want to hear your pain... I hear you... but, you'll eventually need and have to move on. If you don't want to move on and want to stay stuck in those negative feelings and places. then it's only up to you. Help yourself and I will help you... a saying more or less.


Regards.

[Appalled Observer]

Someone else have a go, and perhaps tell Manny about their "demented" fantasies, which as far as I know (and have seen, here) are an entirely natural part of dealing with unresolved violation.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Appalled Observer

Someone else have a go, and perhaps tell Manny about their "demented" fantasies, which as far as I know (and have seen, here) are an entirely natural part of dealing with unresolved violation.

I should pass on that really. My dad told me a while ago to "get a grip", and I feel almost as offended with Manny as I do with him. If you know next to nothing about a person's life except for one thing, I dont feel anyone should be judging and belittling their pain. I have been suffering with particilarly bad depression for the last 4 years, and for good reason. It's all part and parcel of the sexual fascism that has allowed this situation to exist. I was thinking of ways to end my life last night, because *I* know what I'm going through, not Manny or anyone else. If someone came upto me regarding this subject alone, and told me to "get over it", I may well attack them for it, or at best, remove them from my life.

Manny. if you don't like the responses you are getting, perhaps it's got something to do with your comparison to those that have been in "accidents", or those who have "diseases". The *legal* sexual mutilation of baby boys, is no accident or disease. If it makes you feel better about yourself to see and think of others worse off than you, I actually don't think that's anything to be proud of.

[Dasher]

Jamie, you were born in the UK, right? In the UK -- unlike the U.S. -- there is no routine infant circumcision.

I escaped the knife when I was born in the U.S.; my mother's doctor refused to circumcise me when I was born, because he was a Catholic doctor who didn't believe in circumcision, I found out later. The only problem was that my parents decided to have me circumcised when I was 14. I did have a very tight foreskin, but that's not why they had it done.

I haven't had a nightmare about my circumcision for maybe 6 months, which is a record for me, and might be due to my restoration progress (I'm halfway there).

The nightmares always involve the smell of ether (the general anaesthetic that was used for my circumcision), and my waking up in a pool of blood afterwards. I will never forget the look of horror on the nurse's face when I called her over, and the blood-soaked sheets.

Looking back, I wish I had run away from home to avoid my circumcision. I made the mistake of caving in, and trusting my parents, who lacked common sense on the circumcision issue. On this (and other issues), they turned out to be fools.

My mother told me on her deathbed that the reason I was circumcised was because my uncles were circumcised. However, I saw the penis of one of my uncles, and it was intact. So I just considered my mother's statement as an attempt to BS me. It wouldn't have been the first time.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Dasher

Jamie, you were born in the UK, right? In the UK -- unlike the U.S. -- there is no routine infant circumcision.

It's still perfectly legal over here, although it's quite rare now. The national healthcare department (NHS) are on the fence; as in, they don't list barely any of the many negative affects we now have available as evidence. They only list "infection" and "excessive bleeding", but what about the rest of the negatives? They are definitely saying as little as possible to prevent a social up-roar.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Circumc...roduction.aspx

I was given no anesthetic as a baby, as most weren't. I'm not sure about now though. I'm not sure what is worse: having the majority circumcised, or just a minority. In the shower rooms as at school, I was the odd-one-out. In fact, the only person I saw that had a similar penis to me (aside from imagery), was my brother. I have never seen my father's although he told me just a year ago he was also circumcised. He has lived his whole life in denial, and our relationship is unfortunately shattered, because he doesn't want to discuss it.

Originally Posted by Dasher

Looking back, I wish I had run away from home to avoid my circumcision. I made the mistake of caving in, and trusting my parents, who lacked common sense on the circumcision issue. On this (and other issues), they turned out to be fools.

I regard my parents as fools too, and I find that a really sad fact, but it's true. As this is still new to me, perhaps I will start developing nightmares as well, not sure yet. Sorry for your story, it sounds sad...

[admin]

Originally Posted by Manny

Sometimes, people must be shaken with these kind of thoughts and see things differently.

When you say "sometimes" it's hard to disagree with anything. "Sometimes" racial profiling might be a good idea.

But in general, getting over the loss of a body part is not a "snap out of it" kind of thing. When you discover a loss there's grieving, which takes time and tears. There's also accomodation, which we do by restoring, to get the best possible function out of what's left.

In time wounds become scars and aren't so raw.