Fully Informed Consent

[admin]

In keeping with the (in my opinion bogus) assumption that parental consent is valid for pleasure-reducing cosmetic on a healthy child, the ICGI prepared a fully-informed consent disclosure document in 2001.

http://ICGI.org/Downloads/FD2.pdf

-Ron

[imahokie]

So what percentage of parents actually see this document?

[greg_b]

Excellent! Thanks for posting the link, this should be spread far and wide.

I can say I never saw anything remotely like this when my sons were born, one in 1990 and one in 1993.

Regards

[cobra]

When my son was born 14 years ago, I opposed having him circumcised. My wife was pro. We argued bitterly about it. I didn't know then what I know now. My objection was an ethical objection, and with no internet at the time, I really did not know all the medical facts with which I could form a better argument to convince my wife. I told the doctors and nurses I did not want him circumcised. They all smiled condescendingly at me... the dumb overprotective dad who didn't know what was good for his own child. When I left that day to get clothes and things for my wife they brought her the forms and she signed them. I'm sure it was done on purpose to let her have her way. She was determined. She is the most stubborn person I have ever met.

When I returned, some nurse told me that my son was being prepped for his circumcision. I went running down the hallway. I caught the doctor and told him that I did not want this done to my baby.

He smirked and said my wife had already signed the papers. "You don't have a say in it," he said.

I was 22 years old. I didn't know what to do. I had only a moral belief that men should be whole and an entire hospital full of medically trained staff-- plus one selfish wife-- opposing my viewpoint. I stood at the glass and listened to my baby shriek in the inner cubicle of the children's "care" ward.

Thinking about it can still make tears well up in my eyes.

When discussing this years later, after we both got educated about restoring and circumcision, my wife cried and said she was so sorry she didn't listen to me. I told her my honest feelings. I could never forgive her for it. What would she have lost if she had simply given in to make me happy? Let me have my way on just this one thing? Her stupid, selfish ego-- can't let anyone else win when she wants something or thinks she's right... The only thing she won was a little corner of my heart that will always, always hate her for what she did to my boy.

I have tried to let it go but I cannot. I love her but this bitterness does not go away, especially now that I am fully educated about the whole thing.

When my stepson turned sixteen, I educated him on circumcision and restoration. He has decided to restore when he gets older if he starts to notice a decline, but he is very pro-intact and adamantly refused to have kids with his fiance if she was going to have them cut. He did this in front of me and I was proud. I believe she is pro-intact now, though she is a very quiet person. I'm sure he has educated her. He has his mother's stubborn streak.

I will have to be there at the hospital when his kids are born to make sure he is not tricked like I was. I will inform the entire staff that my grandchildren are not to be circumcised and that I will sue them if they do anything contrary to my son's and my wishes. I will make sure that numerous documents with NO CIRCUMCISION printed on them in bold letters are placed with all the child's medical forms and taped to his crib. I do not trust them. The old saying, fool me once, shame on you...

My youngest will be sixteen in two years. I plan to educate him as well at that time. He is loosely cut, thank goodness, and from the few questions he has asked me about penises, I believe he has a pretty much intact frenelum. He called it his "happy spot" once. He's kind of a joker. He has noticed my penis and asked why the skin goes over the head. I told him simply, "Some men have more skin down there than others. I will explain it better when you get a little older." I think 16 is the right age.

I never saw a consent form.

That's the biggest joke I ever heard.

Sorry for the long post. I just have alot of hatred toward the whole thing.

[Joseph]

I'm not sure what I would have done if that were me.

I would have been thrown in jail for assault and battery, because I would have pounded that doctor's face in so bad he would have needed a face transplant.

Is this story out somewhere? Because I think it needs to be published.

*EDIT*

It's been about 10 minutes, my teeth are still gritting and I STILL have my fists clenched. What dispicable doctors. How can they dare call themselves practitioners of medicine...

"You have no say..." - A man should be able to sue for this.

[greg_b]

It is truly dumbfounding and I can't imagine how frustrated and angry you must have been. Helpless feeling too. Like being strapped down and circumcised I suppose. Terrible.

When my wife was giving birth to our first child (a boy and he is intact, that story I have told in other posts) my wife was in a lot of pain, so the nurse told me to leave the room while the doctor gave the epidural. I was dumbfounded and resisted. I had signed up to participate and I questioned this and tried to stay. Geesh. They expect me to be in the room and cut the umbilical cord, hold and coach a wife in agony, but I cannot stay while they give her a needle? Nonsense. But I eventually caved in and left because that seemed best for my wife.

The other thing that comes to mind is how inconsistent the medical community it. When I went to get a vasectomy, the doctor would not do it unless my wife came in with me to discuss it. Can't make a decision to alter my body without my wife, but my wife can make the uniformed decision to amputate healthy and valuable tissue from my son without me? She and the doctor can go against the principles of first do no harm, putting the interests of the child first, human rights and genital integrity....make a poorly informed decision based on biased information, and I cannot stop it when I can see that it is a poorly informed decision? What is up with that?

Bummer. Sorry you had to go through that experience. That would be tough to ever let go.

Regards

[Superdad25]

You're not alone in this.. While my experience isn't totally similar, I didn't want my son circumcised, and I was searching for justification for my position when arguing with my wife. The only ones I could come up with without research were pain, and not altering our perfect boy. The nurses and doctors offered me no help. Basically they advocate for the women, and not the baby or husband. She basically told me to shut up and sign the papers. Now here I am fully informed and full of hatred. How do you cope with the hatred? I know my wife loves my son, but I cry every time I think about it, and I can't ignore the way I feel about her.

[LoveShy]

Originally Posted by cobra

When my son was born 14 years ago, I opposed having him circumcised. My wife was pro. We argued bitterly about it. I didn't know then what I know now. My objection was an ethical objection, and with no internet at the time, I really did not know all the medical facts with which I could form a better argument to convince my wife. I told the doctors and nurses I did not want him circumcised. They all smiled condescendingly at me... the dumb overprotective dad who didn't know what was good for his own child. When I left that day to get clothes and things for my wife they brought her the forms and she signed them. I'm sure it was done on purpose to let her have her way. She was determined. She is the most stubborn person I have ever met.

When I returned, some nurse told me that my son was being prepped for his circumcision. I went running down the hallway. I caught the doctor and told him that I did not want this done to my baby.

He smirked and said my wife had already signed the papers. "You don't have a say in it," he said.

I was 22 years old. I didn't know what to do. I had only a moral belief that men should be whole and an entire hospital full of medically trained staff-- plus one selfish wife-- opposing my viewpoint. I stood at the glass and listened to my baby shriek in the inner cubicle of the children's "care" ward.

Thinking about it can still make tears well up in my eyes.

That's amazing, really. I wish I could say I can't believe it.

[photenman]

There is an excellent law review article about informed consent by parents to circumcision here: http://tinyurl.com/yjczwnz.

The article says, first, "empirical studies have shown that the manner in which doctors typically obtain 'informed consent' for neonatal circumcision from parents falls far below the standard of care required of the medical profession." That is, doctors say essentially whatever the want to get the OK, they don't fully disclose, if at all, the pain, risk of complications, detrimental effect on sex life, etc. "In doing so, they discredit their profession and expose themselves to legal liability."

Secondly, the article argues that parental consent to unnecessary surgery, circumcision, is invalid. "It is therefore unethical and unlawful, [and] no parental permission for the procedure should be effective." The article does not say courts have found this. It says this conclusion is consistent with well established principles of law cited in 339 footnotes.

[madbr3991]

cobra: the amount of pain you must be in is incredible. not only did you wife stand against you. but the doctors all tricked you and your wife. i am so sorry you went through that.

i am only 23 so i dont have a child yet. i will not let my child be cut. how far i go to keep my child from being cut depends on the doctors.
i was cut when i was 4 i still remember everything about it including the pain
the doctor tricked my mom.

doctors swore a vow "to do no harm". and doctors have been torturing babies. doctors tell adults if your an adult dont get circumcised its to painful. but the same doctors have no problem circumcising a baby. the excuse i most often get from doctors is " the child wont remember the pain". i think that excuse is such crap. just because somebody might not remember dosent make it right.

circumcision must be stopped. the only ways to stop circumcision is to either ban circumcision outright or. educate people about circumcision. but its not allowed to be taught in high school. it can be taught in collage. but alot of people already have a child when the begin collage. and doctors can completely undermine the fact that circumcision is evil.